www.justiceforchandra.com

[lynn]

Jane, yes I never thought of that.

Mr. Rich and James Anderson very intresting info.

I was reading the morning news today and when I read again that Karr said he was with JonBenet at the time of her death but that it was an accident. Could that possibly mean there was someone else with him?


Of course like Jane said with emailing the professor he just started beliving he had actually killed her. Actually I feel Karr is a nut case too.
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Lynn

[jane]

Rich wrote that All things being equal the simplest answer is usually best. There's a reason Karr has been charged when the Ramseys never were.
But the Ramseys were far from equal to Karr when it comes to status, money and power. I'm not saying I'm positive Karr didn't do it, but I maintain some skepticism.

[rd]

well, I'm positive he was in Alabama. :) Folks, when you're unemployed as he was, has a two week old baby and two other kids, and you and the missus and kids are at the parents for Christmas, the family would notice if nutcase was MIA for a quickie cross country flight to Denver to "have sex, but there's so many ways to have sex" with a little girl and "oh by the way, I was there when she died, it was an accident".

Of course, he just says he was there, as if someone else did it. Conveniently makes the DNA sort of irrelevant and him harmlessly in the spotlight, doesn't it?

rd
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ralph@ee.net

[James Anderson]

Expert: Million-to-One Chance Karr Didn't Write Ransom Note
Wednesday, August 23, 2006

This is a partial transcript of "The Big Story With John Gibson," August 22, 2006, that has been edited for clarity.

JOHN GIBSON, HOST: Handwriting experts have been whipping out their microscopes to examine an old yearbook signed by Ramsey suspect John Mark Karr. Many have found similarities between the yearbook note and the ransom note left at the crime scene in Boulder.

My next guest is going to go out on a limb. He says the chances are "a million to one" that Karr didn't write the ransom message. Curt Baggett is a handwriting analyst and cofounder of the School of Forensic Document Examination in Texas.

So Mr. Baggett, there's three letters that you say are very important: the A's, the F's and the T's. And we're going to show them here on the screen. Why do you think that they indicate that this is Karr's — that the ransom note is Karr's handwriting?

CURT BAGGETT, HANDWRITING ANALYST: Well, they match. And they're very, very similar and there's probably a dozen of other traits in the handwriting that I look at to be almost in the exact match. You just can't have that many similar traits without the same person having written it.
I look at some really, really good forgeries sometimes and of course it would have been hard for someone to forge his handwriting. So when we're looking for similarities, we look at the different letters, the slant of the writings, the beginning strokes, ending strokes and all the little, particular things that you can't see unless you look under a microscope. And my examination reveals that the evidence says that the same author wrote JonBenet's ransom note and high school annual and also the application for the school job that John Karr did.

GIBSON: I believe you said 99.9 percent. That's awfully darn high. In fact, I guess you would say it's conclusive?

BAGGETT: Yes, it is to me. That's my professional expert opinion. I don't take the case unless I think that I can go to court and prove it. And so it's always 100 percent or nothing. If I can't — I think that this is overwhelming evidence because there are so many similarities that it has to be the same author.

GIBSON: Well let me look at these letters again, the A's, the F's and the T's, and I guess there's one other letter in the double box we have that shows the letters compared. I'm looking at the A and they look alike to me. But I'm not an expert.

What is it about them that's so distinctive that you say they absolutely match?

BAGGETT: Well, the A's have a little cover on them and they are the same size and shape and at the end on the bottom, many of them go out to the right. Which also is the same thing that happens to the L's, if you notice the double L's, they go down to the left and come back to the right, usually with a little hook on them. And the D's are very, very distinguishable. The D's have a little tear drop on the bottom, they go up towards the top and then usually lean to the left and then sometimes have a little hook on the top of it, too, to the left.

GIBSON: Mr. Baggett, I've got one quick question. What about the "SBTC," the "shall be the conqueror" in the school yearbook and then under the signature in the ransom note? Do you that that is a strong indicator it's the same person?

BAGGETT: Well, it appears to be. But that would be speculation because there's no evidence to that. But it seems very odd and coincidental if it's not.

GIBSON: Curt Baggett, thank you very much. A handwriting analyst that says 99.9 percent.

Curt, thank you.

Content and Programming Copyright 2006 FOX News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

[peripeteia]

I personally find the handwriting compellingly similar, the ramsom note is without the flare of his year book extravagant writing and signature. Take away the artisit hand, and the writing is very similar. Some differences are attributable to the pen, paper, and also time, it looks as though the person who wrote the ransom note was stoned, high on something. The writings are more alike than they are different.

I remember now about the contaminated DNA specimen with blood, who is to say that it did not get comtaminated during the murder. If the saliva is contaminated with blood or vice-versa, no DNA's of anyone at the site or the lab are likely related to Karr. However, we cannot possibly believe that cutlurey used on the plane or while he was incarcerated in Thialand, that no one copt his DNA, this seems difficult to believe, although in admissible, sooner or later and likely sooner he will have to give a DNA sample. That is likely to open up a whole data bank at the FBI.

It was stated by a pathologist that there is no way that Jon Bennett's death was an accident, it was delibert strangulation. He stated this was the cause of death. It was done by someone with sadistic tendencies.
I understand there was no sperm DNA evidence on Jon Bennett.

We will see what investigation will lead to. Whether or not he was there for Christmas in 1996. Still if he was home for supper on Christmas who'd have missed him or remembered if he came home late. We do not know what monies Karr may've gotten for Christmas from his family that he did not tell his wife about.

There is much to be learned, and what is overwhelmingly compelling is that the police would not make another blunder in the case, without having their ducks in a row, they must have something up their sleeve, besides Karr's testimony. One would hope!
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A vision sent me on the path of seeking justice for Chandra, nothing I've seen in print to date has diminished the vividness but only served to reaffirm the validity of this vision.

[rd]

"came home late"? Do you have any idea how long it takes and how much money it costs to fly from Atlanta to Denver, get to a home in Boulder, break in and do this horrible act, write a ransom note, and oh, hmm, I'll just flag down a cab in Boulder in the middle of the night and jetset back to Atlanta before they miss me around the Christmas tree, especially since I'm a daddy of a two week old and my whole extended family is basically sitting there looking at me.

Hasn't anyone ever been to their in-laws for Christmas?

rd

[Rainbow]

The photograph supposedly hanging in the Ramsey bedroom. . . John Ramsey in Navy regale, with the inscription "Subic Bay Training Center". . .

[laskipper]

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404


Lots of good info on the RN and handwriting-



Go to page 3 of the above link for this:

Independent Confirmation of the Handwriting Analysis


Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

“Based on the presently available documents, there are strong indications that Patsy Ramsey is the author of the ransom note.”

David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

“There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer (51), the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

“Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

Chet Ubowski wrote, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.'' He is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched exemplars from Patsy Ramsey.

Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

“I have made careful examination and comparison of the ‘ransom’ note and the exemplars of Patsy Ramsey. I have reached the conclusion that the handwritings and ‘ransom’ note were very probably written by the same person…it is my professional opinion that Patsy Ramsey very likely wrote the ‘ransom’ note.”

Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

“It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”
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A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves
~
French philosopher Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)

[rd]

yes, Rainbow, and I gather it's supposed to have been over the desk where the ransom note was written. Still, I agree that that that is a longshot of a suggestion for being the source of SBTC in the ransom note (following Victory).

If Karr really used SBTC previously as is reported that is more of a coincidence than I can explain. I find it difficult to imagine either suggestion (someone looked at the painting for inspiration for a fake group name or Karr initialing SBTC as Shall Be The Conqueror).

rd

[rd]

skipper, that's true, and yet we have experts saying both are identical. What's the odds that multiple people involved in the case (Patsy and Karr) could match the ransom note?

Pretty slim I would think, unless cherry picking goes on and they pick whatever they can match up and say they must be the same person.

Rather than 4 letters, what about *all* the letters being compared?

rd
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ralph@ee.net

[laskipper]

[MrRich]

John Karr has shown that he has an incredible talent for traveling great distances on very little income. In the past the guy has driven a Delorean and a Porsche. Who knows where he gets his money? The fact is he manages to do these things.

The fact that his family is standing up for him is irrelevant. Scott Peterson's family also proclaimed his innocence. Likewise with Oswald's mother and O.J. Simpson's family and friends. What I want to see from Karr's family is evidence that he was at home in Georgia on 12/25 and 12/26 in 1996. Evidence in the form of phone records, credit card transactions ... etc. What I want to see from the prosecution is similar evidence of his presence in Boulder on those same dates.

-Rich
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All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually best.

[peripeteia]

Mr. Karr does seem resourceful, also, he might have hired himself out for sex for money, jewerly... My understanding he was in the throws of obtaining or trying to obtain a sex change at the time of his arrest in Thialand.

There is also the possibility that he may have sold drugs, meth amphedimine?

Regarding his penmanship, the thing to keep in mind, that he went through the same school system as Patsy, in a relatively close time frame, thus may have had the same school of instruction of writing and printing.

For example, I studied in school the MacLean method of printing and writing, so did my Mother, so did people for a very long time in Canada use this system, thus many people write alike who were born in a specific time frame, this was used throughout Canada. Thus I can look at someone's writing and in a heart beat determine if they studied under this school of writing.

Also, in German, it is very easy to pick out that a persons handwriting is German, because they adhered to a certain method...


For example, the '8's" of both Patsy and the ransom note are similiar, also Karr's and the ransom note. I do not make 8's as such, nor do most of the people I've examined, and it has to do with the starting position of making a figure 8.

The method of printing instituted in the Atlanta School might account for some of the similarities in writing of Karr and Patsy? This is just an educated guess?

I'm more compelled by the similarities of Karr's writing to the ransom note than I was every of Patsy's writing compared to the ransom note.

Many years ago I examined the writing and was only intrigued by the figure 8. That is not a very high comparison...the "a's" might also have been similar.

Patsy although not an excellent writer, has a more controlled sense of script than the ransom note.

The ransom note and Karr's writing are more uncontrolled, in fact it appears that the person writing the ransom note was intoxicated or on drugs, it shows an unsteadiness of hand.

many of the letters are written identically by Karr and the ransom note, except in the ransom note, the writing is more jerky...


rd, I tend not to believe wives of someone indited for a crime, as they are unreliable, besides living with Karr must have been a bag of tricks, and my guess is that she separated from him emotionally and physically long before he moved out....

A woman may despise her husband but because of the social disgrace they are moot or lie, also if the husband was abusive which I except Karr was, and we know he was by the testimony of his first wife's parents.
From what I understand of the South, reputation of one's family is everything.

It is possible that the wife stuffers from Stockholm or battered wife syndrom, and they tend never to be insightful, although a harsh statement it is the nature of what happens to a person living in an abusive relationship. Frankly, I'm surprized the inlaws would have him under their roof. I cannot imagaine it...the Karr's were already known to have serious problems and their biggest problem was with Karr.

Like Rich, until there is proof positive that Karr was at his inlaws for Christmas, I'll believe he was elsewhere....
_________________
A vision sent me on the path of seeking justice for Chandra, nothing I've seen in print to date has diminished the vividness but only served to reaffirm the validity of this vision.

[rd]

I care nothing for vouchers of faith in onnocence from a suspect"s family. Moreover, the family is not vouching for his innocence based on faith. Indeed, they say he has emotional and mental problems.

Rather than suffering from some syndrome or whatever, his wife left him due to fear for her children from him. Not left him cowering in fear or some such nonsense, but ditched him.

No, they are simply saying its impossible. Anyone who has ever been with an extended family at Christmas with a two week old baby would know how memorable it is. They have pictures of the children being there. The parents were there with them. For him not to have been there would have been a memorable family scandal, they say.

Being unemployed, he had not the money for a MARTA ticket. much less a jet hopping excursion to Denver, where indeed a credit card transaction would be in the realm of possibilty. Penniless is penniless. Anything else is rationalized fantasia.

Instead the scandal should be that such silly handwringing over handwriting can take place in complete denial.

rd
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ralph@ee.net

[blondie]

He sure got money from somewhere for his later known travels. And fancy cars.