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Similar Murder Cases
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9273
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:43 pm    Post subject: Similar Murder Cases Reply with quote

benn has posted a followup to the case of the Sacramento lawyer's wife who killed her husband, refrigerated his body, and later transported his body to a vineyard and buried him. Turns out she's a fugitive from Florida, just like Darrell. This parallels Chandra's case so much it's spooky.

There are all kinds of other potentially similar murder cases to post for us to compare to, murders of the other woman, murders in Rock Creek Park, murders of women in parks, murders of interns, murders where the body was dumped in a park and not discovered for months.

But I believe this particular murder case can be used to show a real case that's similar to the Luray theory, and that will be helpful to readers to put it in perspective.

rd
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9273
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benn wrote: " This is me, benn. I took the above off of one of the posts above. "I've got everything under control," quoting lawyer Larry McNabney.

Doesn't that sound a little like Chandra telling her mother that Condit had explained everything. (I don't know if I quoted Chandra correctly here.)"


It sure does, benn. The victim thinking they have the situation under control just days before they die. Trying to get control of the situation probably was a factor in their deaths, too.

rd
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

benn, now I'm wondering whether they had the trial for Sarah Dutra and whether she was found guilty of helping transport the murdered lawyer and digging a grave for his body. The prliminary hearing was for April 18th.

rd
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 2136
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="rd"]benn, now I'm wondering whether they had the trial for Sarah Dutra and whether she was found guilty of helping transport the murdered lawyer and digging a grave for his body. The prliminary hearing was for April 18th.

rd[/quote]

I got sidetracked here. We have two Similar Murder Cases, one on the main forum, and the one here.

I just posted a Sacramento Bee article written October 16, 2002, and it says that the trial is set for January 8; but it seems like I have heard something on the news about that. I am thinking she may have plea bargained, or plead guilty.

I will find a more recent article if I can.

benn
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 2136
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd

http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=903

>>>The next day, she came clean in a three-page confession. She said she and an accomplice fed him the horse tranquilizer and drove him into the mountains. She said they tried to bury him, but he was still alive so they took him home, where he finally died that night. There they loaded him into a refrigerator. When rigor mortis set in, his body stiffened, forcing the door open. So, Sims said, they wrapped the refrigerator in duct tape to keep it shut, and left the body there for about three months. Finally, she said, she chose a vineyard to bury him in because he had always liked wine.<<<

This is from one of my posts about NcNabney at the other topic.

This was not a planned delayed burial. Somewhere in one of the articles I posted I read that he was given the tranquilizer in a hotel room. Then he was put into a wheel chair and pushed out of the hotel. They told people that McNabney was drunk. He was not drunk, but he was not dead yet either. Then they tried burying him near to Yosemite National Park, but he was still alive, so they took him home where he finally died. That is the reason they put him in the refrigerator. The delayed burial was not planned. (These are my comments gleaned from the articles, but I can not find the exact paragraph now that says they pushed him out of the hotel in a wheelchair. Makes sense though. They could not have carried him out.)

benn


http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=903

>>>Prosecutors allege Sims Jordan and Dutra, a 1998 graduate of Vacaville High School and an art student at Sacramento State University, gave McNabney a large dose of horse tranquilizers while the three were in Los Angeles for a horse show. When McNabney did not die immediately, the three returned to Northern California, stopping outside Yosemite National Park, where Dutra is reported to have begun digging a grave for McNabney.<<<
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an eeriely parallel case, benn, which people will be able to relate to Chandra's case. Lisa/Elisa a fugitive from Florida, Sarah the class president of her high school digging a grave for her lawyer boss with Lisa/Elisa, the lawyer's wife, after months of the body being in cold storage after they killed him.

Just a side note, the lawyer was found with his leg sticking out of the vineyard. He obviously was not buried that way. For the first few years I lived here in my house I found shotgun shells in the large yard I have here, even though I had mowed over the area several times and had not seen shells lying on the ground. Turns out that people living here before me shot shotguns all the time and shells were laying everywhere and got buried. Then they percolated to the surface with rain or freezing/thawing. Same thing with golf balls I found. Not sure if one guy was driving balls and another one was shooting at them like skeet, but my guess is that was their idea of cheap thrills... :)

rd
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peripeteia



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1173
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:55 pm    Post subject: This lady seems like a psychopath Reply with quote

Benn, this woman certainly didn't loose any sleep it would seem having buddy in the basement in a fridge for several months. The whole scenario sounds a little fantastic. Very creepy lady.

Why did she kill him Benn, or was it just a money thing?
kate
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A vision sent me on the path of seeking justice for Chandra, nothing I've seen in print to date has diminished the vividness but only served to reaffirm the validity of this vision.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a money thing, they cleaned him (and his clients) out for $500,000. Reminds me of that movie with Sigourney Weaver and Jennifer Love Hewitt as a mother/daughter con team with Gene Hackman as the victim.

rd
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admin



Joined: 05 Sep 2002
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kate wrote:

Hi benn:

I think I saw this case on a programme some time ago, I don't think they were caught when the programme was aired. It seems that Lauren Simms Jordan took the easy way out and let Dutra holding the bag. Dutra is sure in a wack of trouble. It will be difficult to ever know the truth, as it seems one would lie and the other would swear to it. Except that Lauren's lips are permanently sealed.....it would be difficult to determine what part spite played in Lauren's confession. It seems Lauren's whole life was a lie.

This couple the Macs had to have had a strange relationship of sorts, in that a man goes missing from his practice and his life and no one really notices for months...very odd.

This young woman Dutra, a life so filled with promise, where did it all go wrong? It will be interesting to see if the court has mercy on this young woman...I'd like to think that she was corrupted? But what do I know, it could have been all Dutra's idea?!!!

The picture of Lauren is bleek, and unfortuately she never went straight, likely she knew no other life other than crime. Lived on the fringes and just never got it together. She was truely sociopathic, and ya kind of wonder if Lauren ever bumped off anyone else who got in her way. Lauren is an intesting case study. It would be interesting to know what her past was that made her so mean and ruthless?

Thanks for the articles Benn.
kate
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 2136
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2002 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kate and rd

rd, you said they killed McNabney for money, but I also read that he was a heavy drinker and took drugs. The heavy drinking may have turned his wife against him (my opinion) He also had quarter horses, and either raced them or showed them. The article I read sounded like he only showed them. He was supposed to have been known in the horse world. His wife Simms also liked horses, but that did not seem to be enough for her.

I am surprised that Simms took so much time in gathering up his money after he was dead. I am going to try to watch for this case. I don't know if it goes nationwide or only locally. A little of both I guess.

benn
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2002 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on it benn is that she met McNabney through those circles of drugs and alcohol and used that to select him as a victim, a victim who had money and could be manipulated and pay for the life she wanted. She didn't mind him being around since she spent all her time in an affair with the young Sarah.

Lisa/Elisa didn't kill her sugar daddy until he had served all the purpose to her she wanted. I think I saw something in those articles about him being unhappy with her. That's when she pulled the plug on him.

rd
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2002 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were prior warnings to McNabney from friends and/or relatives. Simms had taken her former husband for $30,000 on his credit card in six months, and he dumped her. In one of the articles someone called Simms a black widow.

benn
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from an article benn just posted on a similar case, a Sacramento lawyer killed by his wife, and then buried a few months later.


quote

Testa told the jury Thursday that he believes circumstantial evidence will prove Sims and Dutra poisoned McNabney at a City of Industry horse show on Sept. 10 or 11, 2001, then moved to cover up the crime on Sept. 11 as the rest of the country absorbed the horror of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

end quote


I still believe that Chandra was moved to the spot in Rock Creek Park from Luray when all the attention went to the horrors of September 11 as described above and attention was taken off of Condit. The lawyer's wife and her friend used September 11 as a distraction for their murder, then moved the body from a refrigerator later and buried it a few miles away.

Was Chandra moved from a Luray cave in a similar fashion and hidden in leaves in a spot in Rock Creek Park that would shift attention from Condit to a random attacker in a park?

rd
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peripeteia



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1173
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd: I agree with you that Lisa babes preyed on and planned to rob her husband and choose him because he was an alcoholic and drug addict as then he'd be puddy in her hands so to speak. Lisa is a sociopath, and she planned her every move. Benn it is difficult to know why she hung around so long, other than the money kept coming in and she was greedy.

Benn and rd: it is possible that Chandra was moved to RCP during the turmoil and confusion that followed the wake of 911. Certainly for those criminally minded; this was opportunity, a move at this time would have gone virtually unnoticed.

On that very day Chandra's parents were to fly to Chicago to be on the Ophrah Show. Chandra's defender Barb Olson meet her death in the plane crash of the events of 911. The world was certainly closing in on Gary at this point. The case in court (AMS) hung in the balance on this day. Certainly Gary must have been feeling enormous pressure, and from his viewpoint 911 must have been manna from heaven. Surely if Chandra's body had been placed elsewhere, which we feel is the case, the time to move her would have been september. However, the forensic evidence at the site should have been able to tell us if she has been there since May or arrived there is September due to the foliage and insects. This is the part that I don't get, that forensics have not been able to state when she was placed there, which I find very odd. Or the police know and aren't saying.

It burns me, that the Washington Police so fouled up this case, and we have the present situation with Laci Peterson, and the different approach that the Modesto Police have taken. Although, certainly the Modesto Police force would have been placed in a difficult situation in that Burl was on the police force there. Still all said and done, I do believe that the Modesto police force should have been able to investigate this case. Hopefully they might yet get their mitts on it, with enough pressure from the Levy's it might be possible. Time will tell there.

kate
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello rd and kate,

I was reading back and forth between this topic and the other Similar Cases forum. For some reason I did not read this one right away. The Sarah Dutra trial is underway now in Stockton, California. I posted the last news story I read about the trial over on the other forum, but I could just as easily post it here. I don't think I posted the one from yesterday yet.

The moving of the body after death. With McNabney the moving seems to have been a matter of chance. McNabney was not dead yet when they tried to bury him in Yosemite Park, or in that area. Also, the ground was too hard for Dutra to dig a hole. So McNabney was taken home with them where he died, and was then put into the refrigerator.

The last story I posted on the other forum tells about the testimoney of a woman witness who knew McNabney well, and Simms also, and who was one of the last people to see McNabney alive. The trial is supposed to go on until March.

About where Chandra was placed in Rock Creek Park, I don't think we really know when her body was placed in the Park. Maybe the forensic scientists working for the Levys know more, or maybe the Police and Coroner's office know more.

Chandra's death seems to be like something planned with sophistication. The recent shooting of a pregnant woman in Sacramento was done by men about 20 years old, a very unsophisticated crime. The body was found almost right away, which started the investigation. The Laci Peterson disappearance is a little more complicated, but Scott seems to have left a big trail that the police will be able to follow to find out what happened to Laci.

Laci's body appears to have been hidden somewhere with some sophistication, but Scott can not hide, just as Condit cannot hide. Condit was able to hide in Washington for a year and a half, but he has to make himself shown now once in a while. I am looking forward to his testimony to the National Enquirer, which will be given February 4, and which will be about Carolyn's lawsuit against the Enquirer. Will Condit back out? Of course they are trying to hide his testimony, and all of the testimony.

rd wrote:

>>> Was Chandra moved from a Luray cave in a similar fashion and hidden in leaves in a spot in Rock Creek Park that would shift attention from Condit to a random attacker in a park?<<<

I don't know myself. I have the feeling that Chandra's resting place in the Park may not have been planned from the beginning. She could have been killed iu the Park, but I am not certain that would have been the way it was planned. Murdering her in the Park would mean that no witnesses could be present, which is not a completely controlable situation. A murder in the Park would mean that there would be a chance of a witness suddenly appearing from somewhere. Also Chandra would have had to be maneuvered to the spot when the murderer wanted to take her. That seems too chancey and uncertain for the person committing the crime.

So Chandra could have been killed anywhere, probably by someone she knew, or who knew her from acquaintances. Strangulation would have been probably the best way to avoid evidence of the struggle. She could have been strangled to death in a car, with one or more people in the car. I can remember seeing a movie about the former head of the Teamsters' Union, Hoffa, being garroted in an automobile, whether that was true or not.

My guess is that the original intention was to hide the body where it would hopefully never be found. Rd, this does not conflict with your theory so far. Chandra's body could have been hidden away in Luray.

I do not think that it was planned for Chandra to show up in the park a year later. My thought is that her remains were put back into the park because Condit could not get away from Chandra's disappearance. One way for Condit to get away from Chandra was for her remains to show up in the park, and the crime to be blamed on some lowlife jogger mugger.

On the other hand maybe Chandra was in the park all the time and a mugger was going to blamed when she was found. Whatever the sequence of events the person doing something like this can not predict all that will happen afterwards. I still think that Condit may get caught up by the Modesto authorities. I don't see how Washington can take complete jurisdiction over her disappearance. Scott also will be found out one way or another. Most of these people being killed, or doing the killing, are in their twenties, or around there. There may be some more witnesses that will start talking, some accessories after the fact, maybe from some of Condit's staff. Or maybe an inquisitive soul who wants to get some reward money.

benn
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