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POI screen shots in wide images discussion

 
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9226
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: POI screen shots in wide images discussion Reply with quote

That's a very helpful sequence, Nancy. I discussed those tinestamps but nothing illustrates like back to back highlighted images. What this appears to me to be is the VCR recording images every half second while the surveillance camera was snapshotting every second, although the lens stays open the whole time and it's not a snapshot as we think of it.

Based on my research, what happens is that these VCR surveillance systems have a "quad" between them and up to four surveillance cameras. The quad looks at channel 1, then chennel 2, etc. and periodically feeds the VCR the current image from each camera in turn. So the VCR tape would be image from camera 1, image from camera 2, and finally back around to, image from camera 1.

That hardware will have a timer to look at next channel and write to VCR tape. It also timestamps the images. There are for the most part two images per second in this sequence.

But we can see the surveillance camera image only changes once a second in this hardware setup / configuration. That doesn't save you tape space if the tape is being written twice per second for the camera. You might as well set the camera delay to twice a second and get a new image for each write to the tape, because the space is used anyway and that determines when the tape will fill up and have to be changed.

My guess is the system (cameras and quad and VCR) was installed with defaults and they didn't care enough about the same image twice each second to change the camera settings, or maybe was a technology mismatch of some sort and wasn't an option to either slow down the VCR write to once per second per camera or speed up the cameras to twice a second.

Now this is all a guess on my part, but that would explain the pattern.

thanks for that very helpful illustration, Nancy.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: POI screen shots in wide images Reply with quote

rd wrote:
That's a very helpful sequence, Nancy. I discussed those tinestamps but nothing illustrates like back to back highlighted images. What this appears to me to be is the VCR recording images every half second while the surveillance camera was snapshotting every second, although the lens stays open the whole time and it's not a snapshot as we think of it.

Based on my research, what happens is that these VCR surveillance systems have a "quad" between them and up to four surveillance cameras. The quad looks at channel 1, then chennel 2, etc. and periodically feeds the VCR the current image from each camera in turn. So the VCR tape would be image from camera 1, image from camera 2, and finally back around to, image from camera 1.

That hardware will have a timer to look at next channel and write to VCR tape. It also timestamps the images. There are for the most part two images per second in this sequence.

But we can see the surveillance camera image only changes once a second in this hardware setup / configuration. That doesn't save you tape space if the tape is being written twice per second for the camera. You might as well set the camera delay to twice a second and get a new image for each write to the tape, because the space is used anyway and that determines when the tape will fill up and have to be changed.

My guess is the system (cameras and quad and VCR) was installed with defaults and they didn't care enough about the same image twice each second to change the camera settings, or maybe was a technology mismatch of some sort and wasn't an option to either slow down the VCR write to once per second per camera or speed up the cameras to twice a second.

Now this is all a guess on my part, but that would explain the pattern.

thanks for that very helpful illustration, Nancy.
What really "inspired" me to post the screenshots is: #1; what the podcast people said in Ep. 3. I'd like to see a rebuttal discussion. I was tempted to add another comment at the end of the "word text" with a link to the thread with that other really good explanation comment you did. I even went so far as to screenshot it and debated posting it in as an image. But, I wasn't sure what was the best way to go with that. :)

And #2; proof that the guy didn't casually walk away without turning back. (And they revisit this issue again in podcasts to come). But the background of the camera image stays the same. All that changes is the POI moving from post to post to palm tree. There is nothing inside the space of the little red box until the POI shows up and then disappears.

It's not a growth on the tree; it's not us looking too hard at the video; the POI appears in the little red box at the corresponding timing of the perp walk. "It" is not there in the beginning screenshot; "it" is gone in the very last screenshot.

I have a few screenshots of the POI walking around the pool. I'm going to do a few more and see if I can get enough to do a series in sequence. I especially want to pay attention to the camera times as it is switching from Cam 2 to Cam 3.

Those may appear larger, too, because I went full screen for the captures, and I'll continue with that.
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Elk573



Joined: 08 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy-

Just wanted to tell you that that was a lot of great work and analysis you did on the POI surveillance video. I never noticed those timings until you pointed them out.

Itís interesting though... something definitely seems off with those timings. Iím curious what others think on this. Is it possible that LE withheld certain parts of the video? Specifically in between the fence posts? But why would they do that though when they needed the publicís help with identification?

Again, great job on this Nancy! I never would have noticed that.

On a side note... I noticed in the Unconcluded Podcast Discussion on Facebook that theyíre getting ready to release another episode. But they said it would be short because it doesnít sound like they have a lot to report on. They just want to mention some of the progress thatís been made but it doesnít sound like much.
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elk573 wrote:
Nancy-

Just wanted to tell you that that was a lot of great work and analysis you did on the POI surveillance video. I never noticed those timings until you pointed them out.

Itís interesting though... something definitely seems off with those timings. Iím curious what others think on this. Is it possible that LE withheld certain parts of the video? Specifically in between the fence posts? But why would they do that though when they needed the publicís help with identification?

Again, great job on this Nancy! I never would have noticed that.

On a side note... I noticed in the Unconcluded Podcast Discussion on Facebook that theyíre getting ready to release another episode. But they said it would be short because it doesnít sound like they have a lot to report on. They just want to mention some of the progress thatís been made but it doesnít sound like much.
RD brought the timing to my attention first--by keeping on me about the times shown on the stills. :)

Anyway, I don't think there is any time missing between the first fence post and the second fence post; or the second fence post and the palm tree--that's all there.

If those cameras were really synced--and we are taking the word of some unidentified "expert" the podcast people talked to--there could be missing time between the POI exiting Cam 2 (which appears basically aimed at Huntington on the Green Court) at approximately 12:00:07 and entering Cam 3 (which seems more closely aimed at the pool gate) at 12:00:26.

The footage for Cam 3 begins at 12:00:24, and he is not in it yet. (And I can't find him in it at :07, either; but he may be there in the blur somewhere).

So, I don't know; but there wouldn't be a full 20 seconds missing, if there is, indeed, anything missing. We can't really confirm the actual times. The camera shoots at one frame per second and he seems to stay in place for a second and a half, at least.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9226
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote: I even went so far as to screenshot it and debated posting it in as an image. But, I wasn't sure what was the best way to go with that. :)

Best way is copy and paste to quote like I did here. Can be in quotation marks, bold, italic, or all of the above. :)
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote: If those cameras were really synced...

I think we can all agree these weren't the highest quality cameras. As I understand it surveillance cameras of that era and capability, and I did the research in that era in 2007, did not come with built in clocks.

The general system architecture as I have described elsewhere was that the device capturing the images from multiple surveillance cameras and writing to the VCR tape placed a timestamp on the image as it wrote to VCR. So the time stamps are centrally applied by same device.

Certainly we have zero information on any of this from all the helpful people who may or may not have even bothered to ascertain any of this themselves, but that is the descriptions you will find of common not high quality surveillance systems of the time.

It's also a feature that makes the the surveillance images from multiple sources more acceptable as valid information, possibly even evidence, to be used by LE.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Nancy wrote: If those cameras were really synced...

I think we can all agree these weren't the highest quality cameras. As I understand it surveillance cameras of that era and capability, and I did the research in that era in 2007, did not come with built in clocks.

The general system architecture as I have described elsewhere was that the device capturing the images from multiple surveillance cameras and writing to the VCR tape placed a timestamp on the image as it wrote to VCR. So the time stamps are centrally applied by same device.

Certainly we have zero information on any of this from all the helpful people who may or may not have even bothered to ascertain any of this themselves, but that is the descriptions you will find of common not high quality surveillance systems of the time.

It's also a feature that makes the the surveillance images from multiple sources more acceptable as valid information, possibly even evidence, to be used by LE.
Well, alright then. If you feel certain, I'll accept it.

Here is a question that is related but slightly varied--in the video, are we looking at two different types of cameras? It appears to me that Camera 2--where he gets out of Jennifer's vehicle and is recorded walking around the pool--has motion to it; whereas Camera 3--where he is recorded at the 1st gate post; the 2nd gate post; and beside the palm tree--is a still camera. Am I way off base, here?
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rd



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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They may well be, Nancy, but there are several factors involved here.

First, the pool gate camera I understand more. These type of surviellance cameras do not take snapshot pictures. The lens stays open, image accumulates, and at a configured interval (apparently 1 second with this camera), the image is sent from camera (or possibly retrieved) from a device that for example has up to four cameras connected to it (a "quad"). The device timestamps each camera image and writes to VCR or other storage device.

If you played the VCR tape, you see would interspersed images from multiple cameras, one after another. In this setup there were three cameras that we know of, and one that was pointed toward where Jennifer's car was parked was not working, as I understand it. It would be like the pool gate camera pointed away from the other end.

So these images are "stills" on a VCR tape, a second apart. You can play them consecutively (a "video"), but it would jump through the three positions we see the POI in.

So that brings us to the entrance surviellance camera. I do not know what all is involved here. I have posted questions and what few people post on Jennifer's case do not have any insight on it. I've done research and haven't seen any answers that shed light.

The range is wide, from where Jennfier's car was parked to a good way around the pool, with the Texas entrance seeming to be what it was centered on, which is what one would expect. However, the images that were released seemed to be aimed at the POI. I have not been able to determine if the images were clipped from a wide view to be limited to focusing on the POI. The images of the POI at the car for example I do not recall contain a range that shows the entrance and where the POI walks out of view. The images of the POI walking around the pool seem to be following him around.

But... I have not studied this video. When I was working on the pool gate images in 2007 I took a look at the video, and I couldn't make out anything in the darkness. In fact I believe many people thought it was night because it was dark and Jennifer's car headlights were on. I recall some research from a poster here, jane, who pointed out that the headlights for that year and model car were always on when the car was running. So that was interesting.

In the interim years I got more expereince with dealing with the quality of videos (the internet became video oriented), and last year I took another look at it based on our discussions. So a couple of observations.

The images jump from one position to another. It is still the same delayed capture of a surviellance camera. Each of those images could have been released as a separate still, but they are virtually worthless. I focused on the POI getting out of the car, and wrote up several observations having to do with his height relative to the car and what he was wearing.

I captured stills and did minimal enhancement and posted them. One item of interest was that I could see his arm extended vertically due to a white sleeve. So that showed it was not a short sleeved shirt. It also appeared he was extending it to put something over his shoulder and on his back, the gear that I have pointed out is on his back from my image analysis writeups.

I also did one random still of him walking around the pool (the gate side), and although he is just a white image there was a darkened fairly large insignia type shape that could be on his arm. Certainly it shows up in the image stills, again, somewhat outsized and blurred. But the images are virtually worthless.

In this case releasing as a video is more helpful than some wothless stills, so that is apparently what was done.

As I think on how particularly worthless these entrance camera images are, the thought occurred to me about what I have written about extensively on the pool gate camera, that of light and infrared (night vision) detectors both being on, washing out the image and making dark clothes light colored.

When you look at the entrance camera images, seeing literally only a white shape, it occurs to me that is not image blurriness. That is night vision only it seems. That is why the POI is only a white shape.

Ideally an outdoor 24/7 surveillance camera would switch from light to IR with a light detector activated switch, but in cheaper cameras it either isn't provided, broken, or not reliable. The detector could not be working, the flip activator to cover or uncover the light lens or IR could not be working, or just wasn't provided.

That the camera was night vision only may have been a choice or the state it was in due to failure. We don't know if the OPD ascertained that or even cared. Their public remarks was gee, it looked funny, but don't worry about it. And that was for the gate camera where some kind of image could be seen.

As always anyone who has any insight into how these surviellance cameras and videos could shed some light for us. I have seen precious little insight into any of this.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I was wrong about the cameras being different types, RD. I just spent a ridiculous amount of time reviewing all the videos I could find of the POI. (And capturing screenshots so I could stare at them even longer. lol)

I'm going to attempt to be clearer by inserting a few images.
[please see them in Screenshots and Wide Images with commentary]

So, all the above, I guess, is to say that I think your knowledge of Cam 3 applies to all cameras. There must have been an easier way. rofl at myself.

I think what we had wrong forever, though, is which camera was broken. I did a new "presentation" to reflect what I now believe, and I believe it's possible that if there is any missing time, it is due simply to there being no camera to cover the angle:



And one last thing--yes, Jane was correct about the headlights of Jenn's vehicle. They are daytime running lights and always on when the car is being driven. I think we get this confirmed in an episode of the podcast.
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rd



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really excellent analysis, Nancy. Can't say enough about how helpful it is.

I think you're right. Where we are led to believe the camera's focus has moved is due to third party clips, enlargements, etc. That really explains a lot.

This goes way back, but what little I saw and remember about the broken camera was that it was focused on the front parking and sidewalk entrance where Jennifer's car was parked. It's quite possible that that's not true, heck, there's probably not even reliable info there was a third camera, but I think that is the case.

Note the camera numbering. Camera 1 would be on other side of camera 2 from camera 3. Note also that it may have been deliberate to have daylight camera covering the ends and a nightime camera covering the entrance.

Ideally all the cameras switch with a shutter between light and IR on a brightness detection switch, but cheaper models didn't have those. Camera 3 had both enabled all the time, and camera 2 clearly doesn't have light lens enabled / working. IR doesn't see sunlight. IR imaging also doesn't work as well during day as it does at night. with camera 1 broken, any of this could be due to what has remained working. No info as usual.

So they may have chosen to have different coverage for night and day with coverage as I suggest above. Also they would not be that concerned about surveillance of the tennis court area of the lane as they would the main entrance from Texas and the entrance to the main walkway, i.e. purpose is to be able to identify comings and goings after a crime.

Thanks for that insight, Nancy.
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