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Jennifer Kesse Disappearance Discussion
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below is a link to a recent podcast by Nancy Grace on Jennifer's case.

Her guests include: Joseph Scott Morgan, a forensics expert whom she cuts off before he makes his point; Joyce and Drew Kesse; and the podcast guy, making his usual "kiss-the-Kesses" noises.

If you are familiar with the case, what will stand out are the little details that get once again "adjusted" to support only a morning abduction by a construction worker.

One interesting exchange is Mr. Kesse's statement about Jennifer sometimes selecting her clothes for work the night before and Mrs. Kesse correcting him, with Ms. Grace giving her ample opportunity. (I think he must have slipped-up before being brought back into the fold).

Anyway, I'm not sure I'd even recommend listening to it but here is the link:

http://www.crimeonline.com/podcast/
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
Nancy,
I only have an old paperback copy of the Murder Room but I will scan it to see if I can find 'various types of murders.'
Although this appears 'needles in haystacks' I have a hunch it will be in an early part of that book.
I don't mind trying at all. I may even reread the book, There is a lot of interesting chapter headings and I'm more versed in true crime that I was when I read it years ago.
I should re-read it, too.

Thanks so much for your efforts.
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still searching through the Murder Book, Nancy.

I had forgotten how good this book is so I started reading it again.
An early case was stunning in that the person who presented an unsolved homicide to the Vidocq society was called out as a psychopath and the actual perpetrator himself.
Amazing.

If only they could get their hands on the Jennifer Kesse case.
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kudo623



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote:
kudo623 wrote:
In the case of Tracy Ocasio, her phone was pinged about 1.2 miles from the cell tower which was the same distance to Hataway's house. I think her mother ringed her phone that morning and somebody then turned it off.

It's likely that Tracy had either dropped by accident or on purpose her phone in his house (maybe under the sheets or under his bed) and he didn't know it was there? I say in his house because if she dropped it outside his house he probably wouldn't have heard it.

Hataway needed 4-5 hour window to kill and dispose of her body, which fits in with Jenn Kesse (If you believe in a morning abduction). In other words, I do not believe in a night time abduction of Jenn because if that did happen at say 10:40PM, then her car is most likely left at the HOTG no later than say 4AM, not 12PM.


Please note that you bring up a very important detail in this case--and that is that Jenn did not have to know Hataway at all in order to be abducted by him or disposed by him--all that is needed is a link between them--someone both people knew.
I admit you make a good point about the timing of the car being dropped. The fact that JH would have been confident enough to do that in broad daylight doesn't escape me.

I'm wondering if you would elaborate on why you think he selected Jennifer; and how he managed to abduct her.

For example: Did he simply wake-up one morning with an urge to kill and Jennifer, his old acquaintance who happened to have her own vehicle, popped into his head? He somehow made his way to her condo and hid in the stairwell waiting until she left her condo to accost her?

And if the lawn care workers were at work mowing the grounds around Jennifer's building--how would he have gotten her to her vehicle? Maybe he kept it all polite and friendly and got Jennifer's consent to give him a lift? Once in her vehicle, could he have pulled a gun or a knife out and told her to keep driving. Where to? I believe he lived with his father, iirc. Maybe a wooded area with a lake or pond nearby? Then--watching the clock--committed the final crime and disposed of all evidence; drove the car to the HOG; exited it--took a minute to look back--and finally continued on his way to the bus stop?

I dunno--don't think so, though.


No, while I don't think a serial predator like JH needs a reason to kill anyone, I do think that this was a premeditated crime where his 'services' were needed to make Jenn disappear. I mean, he had to take a risk and do this in broad daylight as you say, without the cover of darkness

So he had to take precautions and hide his true identity--dress like a worker at the Mosaic, cover his tats and hair cut, I mean he didn't wear shorts and a T shirt. I'm not saying the POI is JH, but he sure operates that way.

He might have used a weapon as you say? Or he could have rused that he was working at Mosaic, his vehicle broke down and needed a ride back to his house which was in the proximity of where she worked? That's convenient. He knows how to hitch a ride. But if that didn't work he had a plan B.

No, I don't think he woke up and said "I got to abduct Jenn today". I think this was a well organized and premeditated plan by a serial predator who knows, based on past experience, how to abduct people. The plan was all centered around how to get in Jenn's car. The rest is, in his sick mind, "child's play--and no doubt he enjoyed "pulling it off" and getting away with it.

I also believe that he had to have inside knowledge of Jenn's trip to ST CROIX and when she would return. If this was in fact planned then he had to know this beforehand, didn't he? This was information that was known only to those close to Jenn. But I do also believe that if it was an "inside job" then her trip to ST CROIX precipitated it. I mean why wouldn't he do this the previous Tuesday or that Wednesday? And was it just a coincidence that her ex Matt was at the Blue Martini that night?

The fact that Jenn disappeared without a trace, her car driven locally (to hide the body), then parked away from the crime scene to throw off the investigation, and do it all in 4-5 hours, is exactly the MO of Tracy Ocasio's disappearance, for which JH is the only suspect.

I mean there's no proof that JH abducted Jenn, but it sure sounds like it.
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kudo623 wrote:
No, while I don't think a serial predator like JH needs a reason to kill anyone, ...
Most do have a reason, though. Nothing ever justifiable, of course; but that’s why so many of them choose women with a certain hair coloring or hair style; or women they think are dressed in a certain manner.


kudo623 wrote:
... I do think that this was a premeditated crime where his 'services' were needed to make Jenn disappear. I mean, he had to take a risk and do this in broad daylight as you say, without the cover of darkness
I’m not sure if I’m correct, but the meaning I take from this is you are suggesting he may have been hired with specifics given to commit the crime in broad daylight? I dunno, but this guy is pretty much a lone wolf when it comes to his crimes against women, I think.


kudo623 wrote:
So he had to take precautions and hide his true identity--dress like a worker at the Mosaic, cover his tats and hair cut, I mean he didn't wear shorts and a T shirt. I'm not saying the POI is JH, but he sure operates that way.
Well, I agree he had something on his head. I’m not sure the POI is dressed like a worker at the Mosaic. There were all different types of workers around—the lawn care workers probably didn’t wear the same type of outfit the construction workers wore; and the painters would be different again, etc.

Do we know for a certainty the age of his tattoos? How many did he have 2006?


kudo623 wrote:
He might have used a weapon as you say? Or he could have rused that he was working at Mosaic, his vehicle broke down and needed a ride back to his house which was in the proximity of where she worked? That's convenient. He knows how to hitch a ride. But if that didn't work he had a plan B.
He knows how to pick a woman up in a bar late at night; but to suddenly appear in a woman’s outside hallway as she was leaving for work in the morning and ask her for a lift home? Even if the woman knew the guy, I think the sudden appearance in their own space would be startling. I don’t think it would work, especially not with Jennifer.

To Plan B: Accost her in the hallway with a gun or a knife—perhaps. But as soon as Jennifer got in sight of the lawn care workers, she would have broke free and started running, screaming for help. That would have been her chance, and Jennifer Kesse would have recognized it.


kudo623 wrote:
No, I don't think he woke up and said "I got to abduct Jenn today". I think this was a well organized and premeditated plan by a serial predator who knows, based on past experience, how to abduct people. The plan was all centered around how to get in Jenn's car. The rest is, in his sick mind, "child's play--and no doubt he enjoyed "pulling it off" and getting away with it.
If so, there would have to be a reason to make him target Jennifer. This guy never seemed to operate on a well organized and premeditated plan. He chose easy prey that he could pick-up at bars and private house parties. When opportunity presented itself, he took it. His work experience gave him all the knowledge he needed regarding body disposal and this likely fermented in his mind long before he chose his first victim.


kudo623 wrote:
I also believe that he had to have inside knowledge of Jenn's trip to ST CROIX and when she would return. If this was in fact planned then he had to know this beforehand, didn't he? This was information that was known only to those close to Jenn. But I do also believe that if it was an "inside job" then her trip to ST CROIX precipitated it. I mean why wouldn't he do this the previous Tuesday or that Wednesday? And was it just a coincidence that her ex Matt was at the Blue Martini that night?
I can’t answer why not the Tuesday before the trip or that Wednesday, but I personally don’t believe the trip has relevance in this type of theory.

Jennifer left in her vehicle on “the Wednesday” driving to Fort Lauderdale and flew to St. Croix on Thursday morning, accompanied by Rob. They returned to Fort Lauderdale on Sunday night and she drove straight to work on Monday morning—as she did routinely, every second weekend.

On the opposite weekends, Rob did the same thing in reverse—leaving Orlando for Fort Lauderdale, in his vehicle, on Monday morning. (No word on what day he would have arrived).

But all weekends would have been pretty much out when plotting an abduction. Also, all Monday mornings would have been out as she was either not at her condo in Orlando or Rob was with her.

Nearing the end of the week, things are a bit more debatable. It’s never been confirmed if the one traveling would have perhaps traveled on the Thursday evening—thus ruling Friday out, too.

Throw a couple of other variables in there such as the occasional vacation day, etc.; and it basically leaves only Monday evening/night, Tuesday and Wednesday of any given week.

Another interesting thing to note here are the unconfirmed rumors of Jennifer waking up late at night two weeks or so before she left for St. Croix, and hearing someone jiggling her door knob or trying keys in it. If this is true, it could have been an earlier attempt to abduct her before her trip.

Do you have anything to suggest that the two in question were acquaintances?



kudo623 wrote:
The fact that Jenn disappeared without a trace, her car driven locally (to hide the body), then parked away from the crime scene to throw off the investigation, and do it all in 4-5 hours, is exactly the MO of Tracy Ocasio's disappearance, for which JH is the only suspect.

I mean there's no proof that JH abducted Jenn, but it sure sounds like it.
Well, I think his mo was quite a bit different than as described here, and we are sure he left the Tap Room with Tracy very late at night, (or very early morning if we want to split hairs).

And I point, as I always will, to the ping study. Eleven pings. Beginning shortly after 10 pm. Both phones silenced forever at the same time twenty to forty minutes later.

No solid evidence of Jennifer even being in her condo Tuesday morning.

On that note, however, I’ll add a couple of interesting images.

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rd



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your analysis as always, Nancy.

Regarding the images, the POI has hair not covered by the helmet that is neatly trimmed in back. I commented at time that one can see the different texture of the hair beneath the helmet. It shows up as dark hair.

Thanks for that excellent image comparison.
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kudo623



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote:
kudo623 wrote:
No, while I don't think a serial predator like JH needs a reason to kill anyone, ...
Most do have a reason, though. Nothing ever justifiable, of course; but that’s why so many of them choose women with a certain hair coloring or hair style; or women they think are dressed in a certain manner.


kudo623 wrote:
... I do think that this was a premeditated crime where his 'services' were needed to make Jenn disappear. I mean, he had to take a risk and do this in broad daylight as you say, without the cover of darkness
I’m not sure if I’m correct, but the meaning I take from this is you are suggesting he may have been hired with specifics given to commit the crime in broad daylight? I dunno, but this guy is pretty much a lone wolf when it comes to his crimes against women, I think.


kudo623 wrote:
So he had to take precautions and hide his true identity--dress like a worker at the Mosaic, cover his tats and hair cut, I mean he didn't wear shorts and a T shirt. I'm not saying the POI is JH, but he sure operates that way.
Well, I agree he had something on his head. I’m not sure the POI is dressed like a worker at the Mosaic. There were all different types of workers around—the lawn care workers probably didn’t wear the same type of outfit the construction workers wore; and the painters would be different again, etc.

Do we know for a certainty the age of his tattoos? How many did he have 2006?


kudo623 wrote:
He might have used a weapon as you say? Or he could have rused that he was working at Mosaic, his vehicle broke down and needed a ride back to his house which was in the proximity of where she worked? That's convenient. He knows how to hitch a ride. But if that didn't work he had a plan B.
He knows how to pick a woman up in a bar late at night; but to suddenly appear in a woman’s outside hallway as she was leaving for work in the morning and ask her for a lift home? Even if the woman knew the guy, I think the sudden appearance in their own space would be startling. I don’t think it would work, especially not with Jennifer.

To Plan B: Accost her in the hallway with a gun or a knife—perhaps. But as soon as Jennifer got in sight of the lawn care workers, she would have broke free and started running, screaming for help. That would have been her chance, and Jennifer Kesse would have recognized it.


kudo623 wrote:
No, I don't think he woke up and said "I got to abduct Jenn today". I think this was a well organized and premeditated plan by a serial predator who knows, based on past experience, how to abduct people. The plan was all centered around how to get in Jenn's car. The rest is, in his sick mind, "child's play--and no doubt he enjoyed "pulling it off" and getting away with it.
If so, there would have to be a reason to make him target Jennifer. This guy never seemed to operate on a well organized and premeditated plan. He chose easy prey that he could pick-up at bars and private house parties. When opportunity presented itself, he took it. His work experience gave him all the knowledge he needed regarding body disposal and this likely fermented in his mind long before he chose his first victim.


kudo623 wrote:
I also believe that he had to have inside knowledge of Jenn's trip to ST CROIX and when she would return. If this was in fact planned then he had to know this beforehand, didn't he? This was information that was known only to those close to Jenn. But I do also believe that if it was an "inside job" then her trip to ST CROIX precipitated it. I mean why wouldn't he do this the previous Tuesday or that Wednesday? And was it just a coincidence that her ex Matt was at the Blue Martini that night?
I can’t answer why not the Tuesday before the trip or that Wednesday, but I personally don’t believe the trip has relevance in this type of theory.

Jennifer left in her vehicle on “the Wednesday” driving to Fort Lauderdale and flew to St. Croix on Thursday morning, accompanied by Rob. They returned to Fort Lauderdale on Sunday night and she drove straight to work on Monday morning—as she did routinely, every second weekend.

On the opposite weekends, Rob did the same thing in reverse—leaving Orlando for Fort Lauderdale, in his vehicle, on Monday morning. (No word on what day he would have arrived).

But all weekends would have been pretty much out when plotting an abduction. Also, all Monday mornings would have been out as she was either not at her condo in Orlando or Rob was with her.

Nearing the end of the week, things are a bit more debatable. It’s never been confirmed if the one traveling would have perhaps traveled on the Thursday evening—thus ruling Friday out, too.

Throw a couple of other variables in there such as the occasional vacation day, etc.; and it basically leaves only Monday evening/night, Tuesday and Wednesday of any given week.

Another interesting thing to note here are the unconfirmed rumors of Jennifer waking up late at night two weeks or so before she left for St. Croix, and hearing someone jiggling her door knob or trying keys in it. If this is true, it could have been an earlier attempt to abduct her before her trip.

Do you have anything to suggest that the two in question were acquaintances?



kudo623 wrote:
The fact that Jenn disappeared without a trace, her car driven locally (to hide the body), then parked away from the crime scene to throw off the investigation, and do it all in 4-5 hours, is exactly the MO of Tracy Ocasio's disappearance, for which JH is the only suspect.

I mean there's no proof that JH abducted Jenn, but it sure sounds like it.
Well, I think his mo was quite a bit different than as described here, and we are sure he left the Tap Room with Tracy very late at night, (or very early morning if we want to split hairs).

And I point, as I always will, to the ping study. Eleven pings. Beginning shortly after 10 pm. Both phones silenced forever at the same time twenty to forty minutes later.

No solid evidence of Jennifer even being in her condo Tuesday morning.



I'm not saying the POI is JH, but only that he operates like him. However, I don't think the pics tell us conclusively whether it is or isn't JH, since we don't know who it is? JH had tats on his right shoulder and forearm when he was arraigned, but earlier pics show only on the shoulder.

Actually it was Drew Kesse who suspected JH after Tracy Ocasio's eerily similar disappearance without one piece of evidence. Jenn worked in Ocoee, just a few miles from the scene of Tracy's disappearance, frequented the same Tap Room bar where Tracy was last seen with JH the night she disappeared, and was a member of the Gym located next door to the Tap Room Bar, which JH may have posed as a trainer? . Also, JH knew of local tattoo artists, one of which Jenn may have gotten her Shamrock tattoo from? I heard that Jenn even lived in Ocoee before buying her condo at the Mosaic?

The one thing that probably disturbs me most is the tattoo. I was taken back when I first learned of it because it just didn't seem to fit in with Jenn? My question is who did Jenn hang around with at the time? Did Jenn get involved with questionable people? Was she that naive? I mean who hangs out at bars, gyms and the tattoo shop?

I mean how could Jenn not have crossed the paths with JH? But my question is why would Jenn dump her ex boyfriend Matt cold turkey? Does anyone know the answer to that question? I mean what do we know about this man and his inner circle of friends at that time?

I was also led to the ping theory and how it was scientific and could not be explained away. But there also was just as much evidence that could not be explained away that Jenn was in her condo that night and left for work that Tuesday morning.

However, I do believe that Jenn was in a depressed state of mind that night over the trip with Rob and she had shared that with her friend Lauren who said she was "in a funk". I think her relationship with Rob was not going as she had hoped--she had told her dad that she told Rob "I love you" and got no answer back. I do think that she expected a ring from Rob on her ST CROIX trip and didn't get one. Of course Rob was married before, "once bitten twice shy" and I don't think he wanted to get married. But would Jenn move in with Rob without being married to him? I don't know? There was talk but it wasn't definite but still "up in the air". Sure she was a smart woman, but were the remarks from potential suitors true, that Rob was just using her? She could have done something totally out of character that night.


Edited by Nancy to close quote.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually no indication that Jennifer was in her condo after she said good night around 10 pm, from then on through the night and morning.

Anything about the bathroom and bedroom could be from before 10 pm.

Also while there is a strong overlap that makes it possible Hataway knew of Jennifer, there's not enough for even speculation that Jennifer knew Hataway and had talked to him before. She had close friends and family she talked to extensively, so it's not like her life is a black hole.

Her disappearance is, however.
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kudo623



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
actually no indication that Jennifer was in her condo after she said good night around 10 pm, from then on through the night and morning.

Anything about the bathroom and bedroom could be from before 10 pm.

Also while there is a strong overlap that makes it possible Hataway knew of Jennifer, there's not enough for even speculation that Jennifer knew Hataway and had talked to him before. She had close friends and family she talked to extensively, so it's not like her life is a black hole.

Her disappearance is, however.


Well a black hole is just what it was because that is what happened to Jenn that night/morning, and who knew it could happen? There was the lack of security at Mosaic, the sexual harassment by an employee at work, to the same by workers at her condo complex, to the same by her ex, to stolen keys to her condo, to her ex being at her condo just a day before she returned? Is it any wonder why Jenn felt that her space was violated and why she had a fear of being abducted? She told that to her best friend Lauren, but I don't think she shared that "black hole" with her family? What do you with this knowledge? You just can't do anything until a crime is committed, right? That's the way our 'justice' system works.

OK, you believe the night abduction, that's fine, there are the cell pings that might argue your case, but that's it. And but they are not reliable or conclusive. The pings seemed to be, as Drew stated, an inexact science at that time and said successive pings had Jenn in two places at the same time, 20-30 miles apart--physically impossible. There is no evidence that Jenn was not in her condo that night and morning either and there's no proof she wasn't.

If she exits her condo quickly, either voluntarily or involuntarily at 10PM+, where was she going? And why does she take everything she needs for work to go there? Her bed appears being slept in, the shower is wet, the wet towel, clothes laid out on the bed, etc. Is this a staged condo? If Jenn were abducted at 10PM, then I don't think we see a POI parking her car more than 12 hours later at HOTG, do you? I just don't see it happening that way I'm sorry. Even Bo tracked the POI scent to the bottom of her stairwell, apparently where he was waiting for her that morning?
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rd



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You raise several interesting issues, kudo. It will take some thought to address them all.

First, I think it's important that a night abduction could come in any form. Note that that includes all suggestions of how a morning abduction was accomplished, just after 10 instead of in the morning.

It also includes a voluntary departure and an abduction anywhere from her front door to a nearby destination she drove to. The only thing going for a morning abduction is a belief that she didn't go out willingly. But no one says she went willingly. You have to deal with facts though.

The statements made by her dad on the pings are all factually incorrect. I get that he doesn't think she left her home willingly at 10 at night, but trying to dispute information that her phone was on the move after 10 with incorrect statements isn't going to make it so.

"Inexact science"
There is nothing inexact about it at all. When someone connects with a server, that server can have a log and record that contact - the IP address and time and details about what emitted the contact, such as web browser. There is nothing inexact about that at all.

The cell tower does exactly the same thing. It records contact with a phone, including IP address and phone ID, and the time of contact. There is zero inexact or mysterious about this.

"Can't be in two places at once"
Have you ever used a CB radio or seen it used in a movie? Even in these days it's probable we've all seen Smoky and the Bandit, so yes, we've seen people talking on CB radios.

Let's say you get a breaker breaker I've got a smoky sitting just ahead of you waiting to turn his bubblegum machine on. Your compadre is 2 miles up the highway in front of you. You 10-4 that, mucho thanks, yada yada. Ok so far.

But then you hear on your CB Bandit, Bandit, you left your hound dog back here, get yourself back here, he's waiting for you. And Bandit goes 10-4 I heard that and pulls a 180 at 80 MPH. Okay so we did drift off into some inexact science there, but the point remains.

The point being, Bandit must have been in two places at once. And you go, oh no, he talked to a car ahead of him, and the he talked to the diner behind him he just left. So why would someone think he was in two places at once?

I don't know. Inexact reasoning. Who knows? The point is the phone is a broadcaster, and it broadcasts and can, and does, communicate with any tower in range. Towers are all over the place. We had a nice map of them at one time.

There is nothing that says phone will communicate with tower A instead of tower B if both are within range. I have written that until my fingers bleed, but it does no good. For some reason people can't, or won't, understand that.

There also is nothing that says phone can only communicate with one tower. In fact, if the phone is moving, it makes it more likely that the phone will communicate with a different tower. For little reason at all, a phone can communicate with tower A, lose some signal from tower A and communicate with tower B, and then immediatetely start communicating with tower A again because the signal regained strength. And the phone isn't in two places at once.

People want this to be something we keep telling you it isn't. The phone doesn't automatically communicate with the closest tower, the phone doesn't sequentially migrate to the next closest tower all neat and here's their location and here's where they're going. In a big picture yes, but not down to street level tower by tower.

Big picture with enough time a pattern of towers in a certain direction are used and one can say they headed east or whatever, but this was limited time. The location stuff from police is incompetent stupidity. Just as the phone was not in two places at once, it wasn't necessarily any nearer the towers involved than within broadcast range.

In addition to all that, we know the phones were in bad hands within 20 minutes of Jennifer saying good night, and it's likely she was in bad hands for a few minutes before that.

As for Jennifer taking everything she needed for work, when we examined that closely what was this everything? It turned out to be her new shoes she had almost certainly taken on her trip and worn to work that day, Monday. There is nothing else known to be missing other than the friend's phone.

Some of that is not fair in that friends and family don't know every outfit she had, but nevertheless if everything needed for work is stated then really it's reasonable to describe just what that is.

Parking her car 14 hours later. Actually, for someone who disappeared and has never been found, that's more reasonable than 4 hours. The closer she is to Mosaic, the more unreasonable it is her remains were never found.

There is also an inverse relationship between a crime of this nature and what is done with the body. It is highly unusual to say the least for a random rape and murder to go to such great lengths to dispose of her body that it has never been found. It is not impossible, but it is highly unlikely. There is also some aspects of the time spent committing the crime itself as well.

It is likely that Jennifer was driven off some distance from her condo in the POI's vehicle and some time spent committing the crime. Her car was parked it appears on a schedule, promptly at noon, probably based on where he went next, needed to be, etc.

As for proof Jennifer wasn't in her condo, I would say the odds that any of us would come home from work, be on the phone all evening, go to bed, and get up the next morning to go to work and not leave one sliver of anything in the trash can pretty slim.

I would also say her alarm clock could not be working and if she was around she would have called someone on her landline about it. Speaking of which, there is a good indication that her bf and her at least texted if not spoke sometime after getting up and before driving to work, and it didn't happen.

It's actually pretty desperate to even claim Jennifer was in her condo Tuesday morning, and in a tragedy like this, we don't need any more desperation than we already have.
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kudo623 wrote:
I'm not saying the POI is JH, but only that he operates like him.
Yep, I'm clear on that.


kudo623 wrote:
However, I don't think the pics tell us conclusively whether it is or isn't JH, since we don't know who it is?
Oh, I didn't mean for the pics to be conclusive of anything in any way; and I apologize if I gave that impression.

It's always been my impression that the POI in Jenn's case is not a teenage, skinny boy; but a man of considerable muscular build. When I put the two side by side, I find JH is a bit larger, though. I found that interesting.

Also, I noticed the "hip/leg/step" difference. Now, JH is casually strolling; the POI is doing anything but--in my opinion, (and contrary to what many people surely believe when they say the POI is casually strolling).


kudo623 wrote:
JH had tats on his right shoulder and forearm when he was arraigned, but earlier pics show only on the shoulder.
Thank you for this.


kudo623 wrote:
Actually it was Drew Kesse who suspected JH after Tracy Ocasio's eerily similar disappearance without one piece of evidence.
In earlier years, he did, indeed. And with all due respect to Mr. Kesse, this is but one of his flip/flops, because he now says something quite different. (If I had more time, I'd support that with a quoted link from Mr. Kesse, because I have one).


kudo623 wrote:
Jenn worked in Ocoee, just a few miles from the scene of Tracy's disappearance, frequented the same Tap Room bar where Tracy was last seen with JH the night she disappeared, and was a member of the Gym located next door to the Tap Room Bar, which JH may have posed as a trainer?
Yes, I believe all this to be basically correct, except I'm not sure of how often Jenn would have gone to the Tap Room. This is another story that has changed over the years, but I have nothing to support the older version. I have a quote from the long time, roommate girlfriend stating vaguely that they went possibly a few times.


kudo623 wrote:
I heard that Jenn even lived in Ocoee before buying her condo at the Mosaic?
No, I don't think so. According to my information, Jenn lived very near the Tap Room, which is/was still in Orlando, although near the Orlando/Ocoee boundary.


kudo623 wrote:
Also, JH knew of local tattoo artists, one of which Jenn may have gotten her Shamrock tattoo from?

The one thing that probably disturbs me most is the tattoo. I was taken back when I first learned of it because it just didn't seem to fit in with Jenn?
But everyone has them, really.


kudo623 wrote:
My question is who did Jenn hang around with at the time? Did Jenn get involved with questionable people? Was she that naive? I mean who hangs out at bars, gyms and the tattoo shop?
I don't agree, here. I think she enjoyed a social drink with friends; I think she was a young woman who "worked-out" like everyone else her age; and I think she had one small, inconspicuous tattoo (as a good luck charm, I suspect).

That just makes her a nice, health normal in my eyes.


kudo623 wrote:
I mean how could Jenn not have crossed the paths with JH?
The one thing you didn't mention above was that Jennifer may have known JH during her younger years. Apparently they were both raised in the same county. I supported that with a link just the other day, but I haven't got time to hunt it up right now. It's not far above, though.

To me, it is possible that she hadn't seen him in years until she ran into him at the Tap Room or the gym. Things like that happen in life and are quite normal actually.


kudo623 wrote:
But my question is why would Jenn dump her ex boyfriend Matt cold turkey? Does anyone know the answer to that question? I mean what do we know about this man and his inner circle of friends at that time?
Well, some people are apparently in the "know" about this; but notice they won't address many points. They hide behind anonymous messages and messengers.

I read somewhere, but it is only rumor, that the former relationship had been broken off for about a year.

Now, Jenn and Rob had been dating for about a year.

Is there a significance there? I don't know.


kudo623 wrote:
I was also led to the ping theory and how it was scientific and could not be explained away. But there also was just as much evidence that could not be explained away that Jenn was in her condo that night and left for work that Tuesday morning.
We know she was in her condo because she spent most of the evening talking on her landline. And when she stopped talking on her landline; her cell phone began showing movement.

Other than that, we know she picked-up her mail; sorted it; put the important things in a neat pile and threw the "junk" in her trash can. The "junk" mail was the only thing in her trash. I repeat--the only thing in her trash. (Logan had taken the trash out before he left).

We know she brought her luggage up to her condo because she deposited it in her entryway and left it there along with a bottle of rum she had brought back from St. Croix as a gift for her father.

A couple of drops of water behind shampoo bottles in the shower? A damp towel tossed over the washer in a small room with the door closed? Work outfits laid out on the bed?

The bed hastily made/made/unmade--Logan was lying on the bed before he left Monday morning. That's how the cell phone came to be forgotten, because his friend had let him use it and he set it on Jennifer's night table.

In my mind, nothing there is solid evidence of anything. It just isn't. It could never be used to prove anything. If it wasn't for the fact that it is Jennifer's family's version, no-one would ever accept that as proof she was there that morning. No-one.


kudo623 wrote:
However, I do believe that Jenn was in a depressed state of mind that night over the trip with Rob and she had shared that with her friend Lauren who said she was "in a funk". I think her relationship with Rob was not going as she had hoped--she had told her dad that she told Rob "I love you" and got no answer back. I do think that she expected a ring from Rob on her ST CROIX trip and didn't get one. Of course Rob was married before, "once bitten twice shy" and I don't think he wanted to get married. But would Jenn move in with Rob without being married to him? I don't know? There was talk but it wasn't definite but still "up in the air". Sure she was a smart woman, but were the remarks from potential suitors true, that Rob was just using her? She could have done something totally out of character that night.
Ahh, there is a lot of rumor here.

Lauren did describe Jenn as being in a little bit of a "funky" mood and the argument "that all couples have" which she had later with Rob are both true and I admit I wish we had a few more details.

Mrs. Kesse said "they" were talking about marriage. So, I dunno.

The trip to St. Croix was a trip for Rob to visit his best male friend whom he hadn't seen in awhile. The friend's parents owned or rented a condo or apartment in St. Croix for a certain length of time and Rob's friend and his wife and children went to visit. They invited Rob to visit half-way through their vacation. Rob accepted and invited Jennifer to meet his friends.

Jennifer talked to her girlfriend before she left, explaining that her only concern was all those people sharing one bathroom.

So, it doesn't sound to me like the kind of trip one would expect to end in a marriage proposal. But, that's me.

Yes, I had heard Rob was married before and the divorce was tough. It takes a lot of patience to catch a guy on the "rebound", but some of them are worth the effort. It seems Jennifer thought he was.

Personally, I think Jennifer was right. I don't see anything in Rob that indicates to me he was/is the type of man that would use a woman; and Jennifer Kesse was the type of woman a man marries, not hooks up with to use. (That's just my opinion, of course).

We'll never know how that would have worked out for them, but I don't believe it has anything to do with Jennifer's disappearance.

If she did do something out of character that night, I believe it was because something scared her. She had her mace out; someone had knocked on her door.

I wish I knew. I think it's crucial to finding her.

(I apologize for the length of this. I told myself I was just going to jump in and address a couple of quick points, but it didn't turn out that way. Sorry).
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9235
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No apologies necessary or warranted. In depth analysis required. Thanks for that.
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NapQueen



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lauren’s comments always bothered me because I don’t know how her phone call fits in the timeline - how did lauren know about me argument was like ones that all couples have if Rob was the last one to speak to Jennifer before she went missing?
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with this. Only Rob knows what transpired in last call.

However, the friend she talked to that evening, which I didn't know about until mentioned within last year or two, I would expect that Jennifer gave her the scoop of whatever was transpiring between her and Rob.

I would not expect any less than lovey dovey stuff to come out of the clear blue sky on that last call, so whatever feelings were going on I expect that was the subject of a lot of the conversation that evening.

So I expect that friend to know somewhat what kind of call was taking place based on talking to Jennifer.

Having said that, I have no idea if the friend was the source of any description of the last call either.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NapQueen wrote:
Lauren’s comments always bothered me because I don’t know how her phone call fits in the timeline - how did lauren know about me argument was like ones that all couples have if Rob was the last one to speak to Jennifer before she went missing?


rd wrote:
I agree with this. Only Rob knows what transpired in last call.

However, the friend she talked to that evening, which I didn't know about until mentioned within last year or two, I would expect that Jennifer gave her the scoop of whatever was transpiring between her and Rob.

I would not expect any less than lovey dovey stuff to come out of the clear blue sky on that last call, so whatever feelings were going on I expect that was the subject of a lot of the conversation that evening.

So I expect that friend to know somewhat what kind of call was taking place based on talking to Jennifer.

Having said that, I have no idea if the friend was the source of any description of the last call either.
I owe you both an apology.

Here is my exact wording which has caused the confusion--and I see it myself and wish I would have phrased it differently:

Quote:
Nancy wrote:

Lauren did describe Jenn as being in a little bit of a "funky" mood and the argument "that all couples have" which she had later with Rob are both true and I admit I wish we had a few more details.


I should have typed the above as two separate, individual statements:

1) Lauren did describe Jenn as being in a little bit of a "funky" mood that evening. Period, full stop. That is not rumor. Their conversation lasted almost two hours on the evening of the 23rd, but no beginning and ending times have been released. (At least as far as I know). However, I think we can safely assume the conversation happened before she spoke to Rob as it has been somewhat officially stated that the conversation with Rob was Jennifer's last landline conversation of the evening.

2) The argument which Jenn later had with Rob that evening occurred during the above mentioned last conversation.

So, it hadn't even occurred when Jenn was talking to Lauren. (But the argument with Rob is not rumor, either. We simply have no idea what it was about--that part is all speculation and rumor).

I really do try to chose my words carefully, but not careful enough, I guess. Sorry.

I hope I've got it making more sense now. :)

I'm going to risk clarification of another point that I didn't address in my long, long comment--Lauren and Jenn knew each other since 2nd grade. They were close, close friends--always together; like sisters, really. Jennifer had told Lauren that she had a lifelong fear of going missing and no-one being able to find her.

My understanding is that this fear was present in Jennifer's mind long before she moved to her condo.

And lastly, I promise, is the following short quote from Rob.

Snipped transcript from about 7:34 minutes in:
Rob: I talked to her, I believe, 9:30 – 10:00, on the Monday evening. We had a disagreement over a phone, like any husband and wife; any boyfriend/girlfriend; any couple might have.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3642478585001/?#sp=show-clips
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