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Jennifer Kesse Disappearance Discussion
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
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Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if an FBI profiler has ever been called in to assess this mystery?
At least they have the POI to look at.
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kudo623



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
I remember in a forum I on at some time in the past James Hataway was discussed at some length.
At the time it seemed unlikely he was the sort of person that Jennifer would have crossed paths with.

I wouldn't rule him out entirely though. In this case every possibility has to be examined.


In the case of Tracy Ocasio, her phone was pinged about 1.2 miles from the cell tower which was the same distance to Hataway's house. I think her mother ringed her phone that morning and somebody then turned it off.

It's likely that Tracy had either dropped by accident or on purpose her phone in his house (maybe under the sheets or under his bed) and he didn't know it was there? I say in his house because if she dropped it outside his house he probably wouldn't have heard it.

Hataway needed 4-5 hour window to kill and dispose of her body, which fits in with Jenn Kesse (If you believe in a morning abduction). In other words, I do not believe in a night time abduction of Jenn because if that did happen at say 10:40PM, then her car is most likely left at the HOTG no later than say 4AM, not 12PM.


Please note that you bring up a very important detail in this case--and that is that Jenn did not have to know Hataway at all in order to be abducted by him or disposed by him--all that is needed is a link between them--someone both people knew.
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kudo623



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
I wonder if an FBI profiler has ever been called in to assess this mystery?
At least they have the POI to look at.


Transcript from Criminal Profiler Pat Brown on HLN 12/24/08.

“Well I think we’ve got someone who is very cool, calm and collected, someone who has committed a crime before, sounds to me like a serial Predator.

I would guess that Jennifer’s apartment complex was ground zero because that’s where she got missing out of. How he got in there, was he working at the complex, was he visiting somebody or was he right outside the front of the complex I don’t know.

My guess is he was armed which is what made him easier to
control her without leaving any you know blood in the car or anything like that. Taking her someplace doing what he wanted , probably getting her out of the vehicle to do it and then taking the vehicle back.

Now this guy probably doesn’t have a car of his own which is why he is grabbing vehicles and not using his own car to abduct somebody. So he grabs this woman with a vehicle and then when he’s finished he decides he’s going to
first of all has to return to where he lives because he doesn’t want to have a long walk back.

So he’s a local fellow, brings that car back to a complex he knows very well (HOTG), has all kinds of squirrely people in it, parks it carefully, looks for his window of opportunity for nobody to be around to watch him and gets up and walks away.

The valuables, my guess is that he probably wanted somebody to break into the car, take the car, do something with it, leave other evidence and then he’s “scott free”.
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NapQueen



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still struggle with the ping study issue and that information being taken off the table. Hae Min Lin was murdered in 1999 and cell phone records and data were used in that case.

Jennifer's cell phone records around that time would be so helpful even if the cell tower location data wasn't accurate or useful in the end.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
Where I live it is on Discovery channel's Crime and Investigation.
However in other parts of the world I understand it is on Netflix.

The actor that played Phil Ryan (Texas Ranger) certainly helped make the show as good as it was.

Try this link if you wish. It has the full episode.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=real+detective+episodes&qpvt=real+detective+episodes&view=detail&mid=C3126E342C038BC9865FC3126E342C038BC9865F&&FORM=VRDGAR

You may have to copy and paste.
Thank you for this link. I clicked on it and it worked great.


myserty64 wrote:
I am a true crime addict with a particular interest in cold cases.

Recently I watched an episode of Real Detective titled Damage. (not a cold case)
If you get the opportunity watch it.

I strongly believe if the real world detective who worked that case (Phil Ryan, Texas Ranger) was on the Jennifer Kesse case from the get-go this case would have been solved years ago.

Damage shows dogged detective work at it's finest.
The family and friends of Jennifer deserve no less.
Yes, I was impressed with how he felt a connection to the victim; and cared so much.

I have often felt that a caring connection of that type (by an investigator) never developed in Jennifer's case. I sometimes attribute it to the discord that exists between her family and law enforcement. I think mostly Jennifer's case became a thorn in their side, which basically still sticks today.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
I remember in a forum I on at some time in the past James Hataway was discussed at some length.
At the time it seemed unlikely he was the sort of person that Jennifer would have crossed paths with.

I wouldn't rule him out entirely though. In this case every possibility has to be examined.
It could be safe to consider that Jennifer very likely did cross paths with this guy.

I don't believe he should be ruled in to the exclusion of all others, but there is enough to really make me wonder. I at least see him as being a "more interesting" possibility than Israel Keyes.

Here are some of the connections that support my interest:

Prior to moving to the Mosiac, Jennifer lived across the street from the Tap Room--that's a Florida bar where JH frequented and is on video leaving with Tracy Ocasio. (The last time she was seen alive).

Jennifer's longtime roommate has stated that they did go to the Tap Room sometimes.

JH was a "trainer" at a gym very near the Tap Room, and even though now denied by her family, it is believed that Jennifer was a member there.

Plus, the link below will point out another possible connection--even from their childhood:

Snipped: And Hataway lived in Hillsborough County, where the Kesses reared their family, ...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-06-06/news/KESSE_1_kesse-hataway-ocasio
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
I wonder if an FBI profiler has ever been called in to assess this mystery?
At least they have the POI to look at.
I'm guessing, or at least hoping, that they would put the ping study on the table for discussion, too.



kudo623 wrote:
Transcript from Criminal Profiler Pat Brown on HLN 12/24/08.

“Well I think we’ve got someone who is very cool, calm and collected, someone who has committed a crime before, sounds to me like a serial Predator.

I would guess that Jennifer’s apartment complex was ground zero because that’s where she got missing out of. How he got in there, was he working at the complex, was he visiting somebody or was he right outside the front of the complex I don’t know.

My guess is he was armed which is what made him easier to
control her without leaving any you know blood in the car or anything like that. Taking her someplace doing what he wanted , probably getting her out of the vehicle to do it and then taking the vehicle back.

Now this guy probably doesn’t have a car of his own which is why he is grabbing vehicles and not using his own car to abduct somebody. So he grabs this woman with a vehicle and then when he’s finished he decides he’s going to
first of all has to return to where he lives because he doesn’t want to have a long walk back.

So he’s a local fellow, brings that car back to a complex he knows very well (HOTG), has all kinds of squirrely people in it, parks it carefully, looks for his window of opportunity for nobody to be around to watch him and gets up and walks away.

The valuables, my guess is that he probably wanted somebody to break into the car, take the car, do something with it, leave other evidence and then he’s “scott free”.
With all due respect to Pat Brown--because I'm a fan, too--I think maybe more experienced profilers have reviewed the case.

I'm not sure if they would meet FBI standards, though.

Here is a link to something they call "SMART" teams which they occasionally assemble to review cold cases. They have done this more than once for Jennifer's case.

Following is a transcript from the video, but also interesting to note in the article they mention the big search done at "a wooded area near 13000 S. International Drive, north of World Center Drive ..." It's rumored that is the location of the "final pings" from the cell phones--but it may not have a reliable source. So, just saying--it's interesting. It's about a 20 to 23 minute drive from Jenn's condo.

Transcript: @ about .34 seconds in: SMART teams are often put together in cold cases to generate new leads.

Now this particular team is made up of 24 people who are all experts in their fields. We are talking about forensic experts, criminal profilers—medical examiner, Dr. Jan Garravaglia, is part of the team.

It is a closed door meeting and they will spend all day hearing all of the details of the Jennifer Kesse case from the lead investigator, Pat Schneider.

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/new-leads-sought-in-jennifer-kesse-case_20151109235910117
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kudo623 wrote:
In the case of Tracy Ocasio, her phone was pinged about 1.2 miles from the cell tower which was the same distance to Hataway's house. I think her mother ringed her phone that morning and somebody then turned it off.

It's likely that Tracy had either dropped by accident or on purpose her phone in his house (maybe under the sheets or under his bed) and he didn't know it was there? I say in his house because if she dropped it outside his house he probably wouldn't have heard it.

Hataway needed 4-5 hour window to kill and dispose of her body, which fits in with Jenn Kesse (If you believe in a morning abduction). In other words, I do not believe in a night time abduction of Jenn because if that did happen at say 10:40PM, then her car is most likely left at the HOTG no later than say 4AM, not 12PM.


Please note that you bring up a very important detail in this case--and that is that Jenn did not have to know Hataway at all in order to be abducted by him or disposed by him--all that is needed is a link between them--someone both people knew.
I admit you make a good point about the timing of the car being dropped. The fact that JH would have been confident enough to do that in broad daylight doesn't escape me.

I'm wondering if you would elaborate on why you think he selected Jennifer; and how he managed to abduct her.

For example: Did he simply wake-up one morning with an urge to kill and Jennifer, his old acquaintance who happened to have her own vehicle, popped into his head? He somehow made his way to her condo and hid in the stairwell waiting until she left her condo to accost her?

And if the lawn care workers were at work mowing the grounds around Jennifer's building--how would he have gotten her to her vehicle? Maybe he kept it all polite and friendly and got Jennifer's consent to give him a lift? Once in her vehicle, could he have pulled a gun or a knife out and told her to keep driving. Where to? I believe he lived with his father, iirc. Maybe a wooded area with a lake or pond nearby? Then--watching the clock--committed the final crime and disposed of all evidence; drove the car to the HOG; exited it--took a minute to look back--and finally continued on his way to the bus stop?

I dunno--don't think so, though.
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NapQueen wrote:
I still struggle with the ping study issue and that information being taken off the table. Hae Min Lin was murdered in 1999 and cell phone records and data were used in that case.

Jennifer's cell phone records around that time would be so helpful even if the cell tower location data wasn't accurate or useful in the end.
I struggle with it, too; however, I do not believe it has been totally taken off the table. LE may have shelved it for the time being in an effort to please the family; but they have it.

I don't know what Verizon specialists Mr. Kesse spoke with, but I'm willing to bet LE tipped them off to just go along with him.

You've probably seen the following; but maybe some people haven't or wouldn't mind seeing the quotes from both Mr. and Mrs. Kesse again--first time on this forum, at least: (Sorry for the length. The links will take you to an audio version, if you prefer).
____________________


@ 10:08 Mrs. Kesse: They were powered off. The batteries were removed, which rendered them useless. And they know—the police know—the time that that happened but 11 years later that’s something the police haven’t shared with us. Like we asked them—there is just certain things—and—it’s frustrating as all hell, but there is just certain things that they don’t tell us the specifics for it; because—you know—if they ever find the person, they want to be able to convict.

@11:14 Mrs. Kesse: No, so I think those are maybe people fictionalizing. But no, if anybody knows, the family would know. And if law enforcement isn’t telling us, they certainly wouldn’t tell anyone else.

@ 12:15 Mrs. Kesse: When cell phone towers—and again, 11 years ago, the technology has improved. They might not do it the way they did 11 years ago. But if a cell phone tower was being taken down, for any reason, like a temporary—say a temporary glitch in technology—then what happens is the signals then ping to another cell phone tower.

Initially, the two detectives thought that Jennifer was taken that night. They thought that Jennifer—Jennifer.

These two gumshoe detectives thought that Jennifer would have gone out after ten o’clock at night to take Logan’s friend’s phone to a UPS or a FedEx mail envelope place at ten o’clock at night. We kept trying to tell them there is no way in hell.

She works where they have FedEx and UPS right on site, and that’s what she had told Logan’s friend that she was going to do. There is no way that she would have gotten off the phone at ten o’clock at night with Rob and then decided: “Oh, gee. Travis needs his phone really bad. Let me go drive around and try to find a place that I could FedEx the phone.”

Jennifer was too smart, Sean. She knew that it wouldn’t make any difference if she did it at night or in the morning, #1.

And #2, personal safety was something that Jenn was very much aware of most of her teenage and early adult life. So there is just no way. And the frustration that we had is that the law enforcement kept focusing on that: that the time of the crime, if you will, occurred in the evening; that—after ten o’clock at night, that night. I mean, there is just no way.

https://audioboom.com/posts/5969731-endpoints
____________________


@ 8:49 minutes in:
Mr. Kesse: I do want to clarify one thing concerning the cell phones. I really want to—I’ve gotten down to the bottom of everything and I’m comfortable with what has happened with that, and if I could just straighten that out right now—‘cause it always seems to be a core of controversy.

And it has been with us, too, honestly.

So, if I can just straighten the—when the cell phones were turned off and the ping study and what-have-you—I’d liked to really straighten that out; and to maybe get people just not to look at the ping study anymore because really we just [unclear].

At any rate, when we had the ping study, we were brought into a room with the law enforcement and they explained to us basically, quote, unquote, that, really, Mr. and Mrs. Kesse, you didn’t know your daughter.

She was out up here in a bad area [unclear].

So we looked at the ping study and we’re sitting there and none of the pings made sense to me. I’m just a stupid guy. And none of them made sense to me. Well, how could she be down south and 30 seconds later she is 20 miles north. Out here and over there.

And I’m like, you can’t go by that. This is not good. Obviously it’s not good. Anybody who knows—who just looks at it—knows it’s not good.

Well, no, this is how it was.

And within that conversation, I was told that at a certain point the phones were not powered down, but either destroyed or batteries physically taken out. And I was told the time—and I think the time was somewhere between 10:40 and—10:20 and 10:40 PM on the 23rd; the night before we reported Jennifer missing.

And there has been a lot of controversy; a lot of anxiety over the years of, well, is it at night or is it in the morning? Is it at night or is it in the morning?

And up until, honestly, only probably maybe two [unclear] having a family discussion, it kind of came up again. And I think it was really because of the show. And I have—first of all Logan wasn’t even in the [unclear].

But I have a totally, I guess, different view point of that meeting than anyone else had because I remember being told directly what happened and at what time.

And it seems between that time which was [unclear] maybe even 10 years ago now that conversation took place. Maybe even 11 years, actually.

They’ve walked back on that. And everything I’ve been able to ascertain even in the last couple of weeks that I’ve stuck my neck out—not neck—but stuck my head out; asked some questions here, there and everywhere.

They really don’t know when that phone was turned off because the ping study is absolutely no good.

I was able to actually get someone at law enforcement to get Verizon specialists to look at the ping study [unclear].

And the Verizon specialist said you can’t go by this; you might as well just [unclear] it out because it’s obvious what’s happening here—it’s pinging all over the place. It doesn’t know—I can’t tell you where that phone was from this ping study. It just doesn’t.

And people have to remember, this is infant—not infancy—but, you know, it’s only 10 years into cell phone life. There is no Facebook; texting was still the old, you had to hit one, two, or three on the buttons for a, b and c. [unclear]

There was no Google Earth [unclear]

So, over the years, honestly, something that I have always believed, comes to be just we can’t believe it because the ping study is so unreliable that it is basically garbage.

So I want to get that out there and straighten that out that don’t worry about the ping study accuracy [unclear]

And we talked to Verizon in the past [unclear]

You know, you know—which ping is right?

You know, out of maybe 11 pings that they show—which ping is right? I can’t tell you which ping is right. [unclear]

So, [unclear] has been because of that ping study. But I think it’s a lot of heart ache in my head and heart that the ping study is just out. We shouldn’t believe anything of it.

I really wanted to get that out there because a lot of time is spent on that sometimes on line and what-have-you. It’s just not worth it. Absolutely. And we can’t use that.

https://audioboom.com/posts/6334818-going-forward
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myserty64



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for those transcripts Nancy.

So Mr & Mrs Kesse are adamant this was a morning abduction.
I take it I am interpreting this correctly.

I for one have always leaned toward a morning abduction but that is just a hunch.

The only thing to keep in mind is never discount the fact that any human being can do anything out of character at anytime. So whilst it is thought Jennifer would never leave her condo for any reason late at night is not beyond the bounds of being a possibility.
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myserty64



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we all know there is the good, the bad and the average whether it be detectives, doctors or car drivers etc.

With this in mind I wonder what Vidocq society would make of this case?

There is a very good book about their work titled The Murder Room.

The blurb on the back cover starts with 'Three of the world's greatest detectives- a renowned former FBI agent, a forensic sculptor and an eccentric profiler known as 'the living Sherlock Holmes-were distraught at the growing number of unsolved murders.........!

For Jennifer's family, if only..............this society could have the case files.


Last edited by myserty64 on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rd



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, great transcript info Nancy. thanks.

I have said a great deal about the pings, and it's all down in the Jennifer Kesse, 24, missing thread, and I don't think any of us want to have to wade through it again.

But I said many times, I can't believe no one explained to Drew that phones connect to different towers, anything within range. There's no control on that and his use of the word "location' is a red herring. At no point do cell tower pings give location of the phone other than withn communications range, which can be a few miles. Varies. Doesn't mean anything other than phone was in communications range.

And listening to him, he may have been told that, but he just rejects anything to do with Jennifer's phone moving around at that time. And the police? If they really said that to the Kesses then they are so stupid they should be sued for impersonating a cop.

Again neither the cops or Kesses are considering that the phone going into a bad area doesn't mean Jennifer was in control of where the phone was going. Just an unbelievable level of miscomprehension.

Now I do get that everyone thought it was unlikely that Jennifer would get out and drive around looking for a place to send the friend's phone at 10 at night. But here's your choice. Either she was driving of her own free will or she had been abducted almost immediately after saying good night to her boyfriend. Take your pick. Because the phone was moving around, "into bad areas".

Well that's just goofy because as I said above, there's no such thing as "location" with the pings, and between the Orlando Police and Drew Kesse stumbling over this stuff it's sad to see. "Within communications range", not "location". See how easy that is. Now repeat after me...

Now we've gone through the scenarios of being abducted and the biggest problems are what she appeared to have with her. Now if people want to say that the abductor brought that stuff with Jennifer, immediately, like good night-hello who are you and why are pointiing a gun at me type stuff.

And even with all that it's just crazy talk. There's a reason men assault women, and it would take place in her condo before she was removed.

People can make excuses why they don't like what towers her phone was communicating with and when, but it has nothing to do with "studies", as if the information was subjective and open to interpretation and open to haggling and disregarding. It isn't.

It's a simple list of towers that the phone communicated with and at what time. The sooner people understand that and accept it, the sooner they'll have some chance of dealing with what happened to Jennifer.
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myserty64



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three questions and I expect Nancy to know the answers: :-)

1 Is it established beyond reasonable doubt that Jennifer had a dead-lock fitted to her condo door?

2 There was definitely a peep hole fitted to the door?

3 Was there security screens fitted to all windows and sliding doors?
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Nancy



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
As we all know there is the good, the bad and the average whether it be detectives, doctors or car drivers etc.

With this in mind I wonder what Vidocq society would make of this case?

There is a very good book about their work titled The Murder Room.

The blurb on the back cover starts with 'Three of the world's greatest detectives- a renowned former FBI agent, a forensic sculptor and an eccentric profiler known as 'the living Sherlock Holmes-were distraught at the growing number of unsolved murders.........!

For Jennifer's family, if only..............this society could have the case files.
I read this book, Mystery. It was a good read; I enjoyed it. There is a chapter in there about the "types" of murderers. I didn't bookmark it, but would like to review it.

You wouldn't, by any chance, happen to know what chapter it is? (Sorry to ask, but just in case). :)


myserty64 wrote:
Three questions and I expect Nancy to know the answers: :-)

1 Is it established beyond reasonable doubt that Jennifer had a dead-lock fitted to her condo door?

2 There was definitely a peep hole fitted to the door?

3 Was there security screens fitted to all windows and sliding doors?
Okay. I can comment a little on this.

1) The answer is "no". Not beyond a reasonable doubt. Now we can get into a discussion on the types of dead-locks--but putting the exact type aside--the condo came with one, but because keys were stolen and it seems like anyone could make one anytime they wanted--her original lock was probably compromised.

Now, like all things in this case, there are varying statements made about whether or not Mr. Kesse had installed a deadbolt. He had one bought, but he never installed it. I can find several quotes supporting this.

Statements were also made about some type of deadbolt being installed that Jennifer would be able to lock only from the inside, once she was in her condo--but I can't find the link to support that; so currently I'm not sure about it.

Then, it's been said that Mr. Kesse told her to put a chair under her doorknob; and she assured him she did that on a regular basis. But; every night--did she? I don't know.


2) Yes. Mrs. Kesse confirmed it on the Facebook discussion group for the podcast. I know we can argue if it was really Mrs. Kesse, but I believe it was.


3) Now, this I don't know. I doubt it. But the thing here is the family and also law enforcement confirm that there was no sign of a break-in; so, that at least suggests to me that all screens were in good shape.
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myserty64



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy,
I only have an old paperback copy of the Murder Room but I will scan it to see if I can find 'various types of murders.'
Although this appears 'needles in haystacks' I have a hunch it will be in an early part of that book.
I don't mind trying at all. I may even reread the book, There is a lot of interesting chapter headings and I'm more versed in true crime that I was when I read it years ago.
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