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rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

I've from WV and a WVU fan, so I've been following the news of college conference expansion with some interest. I'll post my thoughts on it below.

rd
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rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

from We Must Ignite This Couch Message Boards ( www.wemustignitethiscouch.com ):

I'm very disappointed to come here and see this talk of leaving Big East. This after I left a message elsewhere on why would a Big East team want to go to ACC. And here I see, gee, ACC I guess if not SEC.

First of all, Big East is coming out of this stronger than ever. We have to think big, not defeatist or selfish. We're a leader of the Big East and we need to act that way.

I like the invite to Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Memphis. But I like something even better. There's the 12 team option, and there's a 16 team option with a so called split of BB only teams. But there's something much better imo. The 16 team option with no split (24 BB team). Think big. Think the best. That is a truly awesome conference.

And don't let anyone say we need to rename it. It's Big East. That says it all. Look at a map. Kansas and Missouri extend naturally from it. There's enough teams with 16 (24 BB) that the western teams and eastern teams can keep their current rivalries for much of the season.

And very important that we keep Notre Dame and make room for them for football if needed. If push comes to shove they are more likely to join Big East for football than Big Ten in my opinion.

The news keeps breaking and I have been following for last few days, finally came here to see what you would be saying and lest zest here than freaking anonymous quotes from Big East advisors.

I saw several I hope Big East expands, but we are a better fit in SEC comments.

Sort of pathetic, given SEC has A&M and is pursuing Texas and Oklahoma at the moment.

And there was post in another thread from someone pointing out a list of teams that would be pursued before us. So really is not realistic at all.

The intensity of thought on what these people are trying to do to preserve and enhance Big East is about zero.

Maybe just a lot of lack of understanding of Notre Dame / Big Ten / Big East dynamics, and sort of accepting defeat from Big Ten trying to undermine Big East enough to scare Notre Dame into joining Big Ten.

Well, Notre Dame didn't fall for it, neither should WV fans.

A couple of good links for you from Washington Examiner. I would hope fans here would be at least as enthusiastic as the college associates quoted in it.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sports/blogs/Watch-This/Remaining-Big-12-schools-to-the-Big-East-gaining-momentum-96137294.html

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sports/blogs/Watch-This/The-Big-East-will-listen-to-all-schools-who-want-membership-96216244.html

Also, the potential 16 team map is very interesting. Join it with the BB only teams in other map for what I'm talking about :

http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2010/06/whats-next-for-remains-of-big-12-look.html

Also, this interesting column from blueandgold.com. I would hope that we are as realistic as he is, not less:

http://www.blueandgold.com/content/?aid=9282

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

wvpiratecaptain wrote: "The CEO of FedEx is offering MILLIONS of dollars (i'm guessing in advertising revenue) to ANY BCS conference that takes Memphis."

Just to clarify, it's $10 million per year and can be used for any purpose. Any advertising by FedEx would be on top of that, but that's not part of it and is more of a business decision. They already have naming rights to two Big East area venues in Memphis and DC.

Regarding Big 12 remains and Memphis, this should all happen next week, as soon as a decision is made by Big 12 South division. Memphis should be part of what we do. We can't pick and choose Kansas and Kansas State like this is some kind of draft or something. You have to make it a compelling offer for them by including the other Big 12 teams to maintain their relationships, rivalries, and schedules for much of the year. If you look at the link I provided above, down at the bottom is the 16 team Big East scenario, it does exactly that plus brings in even more than the four (KU, KSU, Mizzou, ISU) such as Baylor and Houston and includes Memphis (plus picks up UCF). Just forget the split thing with BB as far as those maps go though.

Regarding Notre Dame, there's no reason to do anything except make it clear they can maintain their separate TV contracts and schedule rivalries if they move their football to Big East, anytime they want to do it.

It would be helpful to know that before getting to 16 teams though, we do have to point that out.

Agreed on everything else, captain.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

I don't think we have to drop any BB teams, so it's a bigger conference, just my opinion. Plus BE commish said we won't be dropping any teams, he wanted to put an end to those rumors.

Very important when teams look for stability in their decisions.

br5459 wrote: "…..or the BIG 10 takes Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers and WVU accepts a spot in the SEC and we forget the whole thing. But I don’t think you simply throw the towel in on something as special as the Big East Basketball conference. It’s just too valuable to walk away from."

agreed 100%.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

msaul37 wrote:
i've got a gut feeling the big 12 leftovers will join the mountain west, as the mountain west already has a tv network.

the big east will still exist.. for the basketball schools. the 8 football schools will split for the acc/sec/big 10..

again, that's my gut now.. we've not heard any legit news on the big east adding anyone. it's all been about sec adding, big 10 adding, mwc adding, pac 10 adding..

MWC does not have a BCS slot, but could get Big 12's if they did that. But MWC's TV revenue's are paltry, less than Big East paid out, and we're still developing one.

MWC is also meager competition compared to Big East, and Utah will likely go to PAC10 for A&M making it more meager.

Distance wise, Big 12 North postings find being in a Big East west division league with Louisville and Memphis favorable.

I've seen very little almost none posts from Big 12 North fans favoring MWC. Yours is pretty much as gung ho about it as it gets, and really for no reason.

There is also no reason for Big East football and basketball to split, whatsoever.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

I just saw the NY Post article citing SEC sources saying they are considering expanding with WV, Louisville, Clemson, Ga Tech, and Va Tech. Granted, a bit dated now but I see where all the SEC excitement is coming from.

I would attribute this to Big Ten misinformation aimed at undermining Big East along with the rumors they propagated about taking Syracuse and Rutgers. All designed to scare Notre Dame into joining Big Ten.

As it pertains to Big East expansion, I can cite any number of similar recent reports that SEC has no interest in adding ACC teams. I don't think Big East was even on their mind enough to include in that.

Granted, they will more than likely add one more to match A&M, and they would like that very much to be Oklahoma, which isn't going to happen, and then they will probably need to add a team from somewhere they say they aren't interested in until the situation came up, but in that regard they also clearly state recently that they're not going to split the pie unless the new team adds significantly to the pie.

I would also question whether we will be that far behind if the Big East expands to 16 all sports teams and keep their basketball teams and becomes compelling for Notre Dame to join in keeping their contracts, meaning they don't split money with us but by same token they don't split the Big East pie.

Add in $10 mil a year from Memphis to split and keeping in mind basketball only would only split a portion of basketball revenues, and a Big East network could generate a sizeable sum, certainly proportionate to viewership.

I don't see any reason to have money envy just yet. Expand enough and we become a pretty valuable tv market ourselves.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

Fishoil wrote:
Heh, Orangebloods just changed the headline of their story from "Sources say Texas WILL COMMIT to a 10-member Big 12" to
"Texas MIGHT BE WILLING to commit to new Big-12."
Apparently these sources are either weak or Texas is flip-flopping on what to do.

My guess....Texas is going to avoid looking like the bad guy by entertaining the idea of staying on and blame Texas A&M for breaking up the conference when they don't commit and keep their option for the SEC open.

I hope the Big East Commissioner is on the phone with Kansas and Kansas State already making them an offer to come to the conference for all sports. They would turn Big East basketball into a juggernaut.

I think you've hit it on the head, FishOil. I hope they're doing just that informally.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

POWERSWVU83 wrote:
As a big east member and fan of WVU football, are we all really hope'n the big east will do something or are we just saying that to be nice and loyal to our conference?

If the big 12 conference does end, i'll bet money the SEC and The ACC will come after our best schools to to stay with the pac-10 and big 10!

As I keep asking and apparently no one knows, why in the world would Big East teams go to the ACC? As far as poaching goes, Va Tech will probably go to SEC with A&M. So ACC wants to fill their hole? Cry me a river. ECU should fill that spot nicely.

We in meantime need to get ready to bring together the 16 teams and BB teams on the map I posted above.

We are saying it because the Big East is awesome and the ACC isn't, to put it in the colloquial.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

wow, Big 12 bought Texas off by letting them have their own network, ala Notre Dame.

Well, good for them. The Big East admins and coaches acted like professionals, my hat's off to them.

We should still consider some aspects of expansion though. There are two things that can be acted on. One is Memphis making a serious effort at upgrading to BCS status, and the other is the comments I've seen elsewhere on Notre Dame's poor schedule due to being independent. Here is my proposal.

We take Memphis up on their offer and add them, and welcome another strong BB team and a football team that will invest in BCS exposure, and the other slot, the 10th slot is reserved for Notre Dame to schedule as much as they can from. In other words, we would hope for more Big East teams to have out of conference with Notre Dame than we have now, and help that by not having a tenth team locked into the schedule.

That helps both of us. They have more worthy opponents than some of the smaller teams people were complaining about, they have a better tv schedule for their contract, and we have a better tv schedule for our future network contract.

I saw Luck's statement on let's stay pat, and that's all well and good, but we need to be more proactive than that, in ways that strengthen our league and our network value.

These moves will do just that.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

Columns in Orlando and Missippi talk about their belief that Big East will invite Memphis, UCF, ECU, and Southern Miss to make a 12 team football conference (no mention of basketball other than Memphis would add significantly to it and some BE basketball teams are against expansion.)

I've seen one column in Orlando Sentinel that says invite needs to be by June 30 for legal notification reasons, another in Mississippi that says word is they expect to be added around July 1.

Don't know if they are just being proactive themselves in trying to sell it, but they feel this Big 10 - Big 12 thing has spooked Big East into proactively acting on expansion on their own.

There's some conference phone call coming up whose topic is conference realignment, but WV says it's nothing. Orlando columnist got a snicker out of that, whether true or not.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

msaul37 wrote:
we need to tell notre dame to get in or out. that's more important TO ME than adding 4 crappy teams. after that, we'll either have a 9th team for football or have a spot open to a school for ALL SPORTS. i think the big east needs a 9th team more than 4 new teams at once. maybe in a few years. who do we add, is the question. going with the big east's "we won't raid another conference" thought process.. army and navy are the only two teams. but that won't happen. we could take a member from the 13-member MAC.. but what team? ohio? pitt would love that! hahaha.

We'd have a spot open, for who? The others are moaning about the options.

I see this constant stuff on this board about ACC which really cracks me up. The ACC which ranks last in BCS conferences while by some measurements the Big East ranks second behind SEC?

The ACC that stole Miami, Va Tech, and Boston College and didn't even have a howdy do to say to WV about it? That ACC? You think they for some reason now want WV? Is this some kind of sensory deprived echo chamber here on this board where you can believe stuff like that if you tell it to each other enough? That's what it would take to believe it.

And what of this stuff about who cares about the rest of our league, take us. Why do you think Pitt or Louisville or Cincy or teams the Big 10 might want might not be chosen instead? Leaving remnants that might not be able to keep a BCS automatic if all the other start taking teams. You say who cares, because we're one of the ones taken. You hope. And if not? You pinned everything on freakin lowlife ACC. Well I guess anyone that does that gets what they deserve.

Dave Hickman of the Charleston Gazette has a good column today ( http://sundaygazettemail.com/Sports/todayssportscolumn/201006161040 ) that addresses every option mentioned in this thread. His bottom line is that the Big East and by extension WV needs to do something but his advice is only use the time well, meaning he has no clearly superior route to recommend, he just avoids offering the too simplistic solutions he says is all anyone else has to offer.

I was very encouraged about the prospects of adding the Big 12 teams like Kansas, Kansas State, and Missouri to the Big East, doing all of ourselves a favor. I guess happily for most, they stayed together but we came out of it with distinction and honor. But the reason for expansion still remains, and we have an opportunity to act on it.

Fans here may think someone in another league cares about WV, but there is only one league caring about anything, and that is the Big Ten caring about Notre Dame. Everything else is inconsequential collateral damage.

If they have to pry Syracuse and Rutgers from the Big East to make the Big East weak enough that Notre Dame will join the Big Ten out of self preservation, they will do that. If rumors of WV going to the SEC or the ACC and giving everyone an opportunity to see fans showing how little they care about the Big East, I have no doubt they would that as well.

Pretty ironic, too, given that Notre Dame could make the jump because WV fans are trying to jump, and then finding that the rumors were false to get Notre Dame to jump. Game over. Good bye automatic BCS bid.

So the reasons for expanding are really about self-preservation as well, but preservation for everyone, not just whoever might be taken by another league for some reason, which by the way no reasons are being given out there for anyone to be taken except by Big Ten.

Considering strengthening and self-preservation through expansion, I see this stuff about watered down revenue. First of all, that's a bad assumption. The more teams that are in a league, the more potential interest there is, the more alumni there are, the more fans there are. Sure, you need some level of equitability, but if I recall correctly, we consider ECU and Southern Miss for out of conference scheduling, Memphis is a tiger in bb, and UCF could recruit much better as a BCS team, same with all of them, but UCF in particular is smack dab in a huge base of Orlando.

So making assumptions based on past performance or assuming that a larger league splits the same money more ways are bad assumptions, and we don't have a lot of room for bad assumptions.

Speaking of money to split, Memphis brings $10 million a year to split right off the bat. And Memphis isn't Kansas, but Big East basketball is as much a part of the value of the league as football, and together they make the Big East pretty interesting. The admins in the recent interview pointed out that Big East is the most highly rated ESPN games on Thursday and Friday nights. We're not going to retain that interest and value by sitting still and eventually seeing a couple of teams pried away by the Big Ten and Notre Dame with them because we stood pat instead of making the Big East a competitor fighting for expansion and network contracts instead of waiting to be a victim.

We wouldn't ask our players to give up without playing going up against a Big Ten team, the fans should give at least as much as they do on the field in competing for hearts and minds and dollars and BCS rankings.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

They said it's premature. That could be a few days premature or wait till Big East is desperate premature.

One column is mentioning Memphis, UCF, ECU, and Houston instead of Southern Miss as the four on the radar.

Basically I can see many of you just hope WV is invited to ACC (for some unknown reason) so are not dealing with reality out of that hope. That's fine, it's sports, it's not the end of the world. So it's a fantasy world for some.

However, this is serious business to a lot of people and things such as staying a BCS league hinge on it. Things such as whether a Memphis will be available when desperate hinge on it. Things such as whether WV is still in Big East when it loses its BCS qualification due to inaction from people who hoped we wouldn't be here by then hinge on it. Opportunities available and lost hinge on it.

We have opportunities. If the Big East is expanded and WV does get an invite that for some reason considers ACC superior to Big East (at least in this fantasy world), then the Big East is in good shape to lose a WV, if not it's in better shape.

But that shape has to take place now while people are available and not ticked off at benign neglect. After that, all bridges are burnt.

One advantage of 12 teams is ability to play a championship game. We luck out a lot with championship being determined through good scheduling, but a championship game again brings additional interest and revenue.

I recommend the championship be held for the highest tied teams to break the tie for first, second, third place, etc.

Also would recommend divisons based on standings, like in soccer leagues. Newest teams would be in one division, and each year best record switches with worst record in other division. Scheduling wouldn't be predominantly by division but by traditional schedules and only gradually changing, basically spreading out non-conference to in conference throughout year.

Concerning basketball and the incessant b*tching about unwieldy whatever, harder to win championships (did I really read that on a board??), etc etc yada yada, geesh, think innovative. Everyone doesn't have to play everyone every year, if not scheduled and they meet in league tournaments due to winning brackets, etc., fine, if not fine.

League tournaments can be fixed at some optimum size, current or whatever floats your boat. X lowest ranked teams / win-loss record don't make the tournament, so what? If they earn a spot in league tournaments they play. Somebody doesn't like it, win some games, go elsewhere, whatever.

Same thing with money. The more you play, are televised, win, etc., in either or both major sports, the more money paid out. These are easy problems to solve in my opinion. If only most problems were this easy to solve.

So smugness and complacence are even more dangerous enemies than the Big Ten. Those who are not moving are sitting targets. The moves are available, and the bridges still intact. Reasons for not being competitive had better be good ones. Hoping the ACC is a better and willing home for WV is not one of them.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

Concerning potential expansion of Memphis and UCF, a good column from Mike Grant of uchuskies.com. Also talks about strategy of bringing in Villanova to atract Boston College back and bowl games impact, Philadelphia market, etc.

rd

http://uchuskies.com/

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

obp42 wrote:
Any team the Big East adds from C-USA or the MAC will be seen as watering down the league. The powers that be will almost certainly try and take away our AQ status for the BCS. I know the reality is that we have performed better than the ACC, but this isn't about performance it's all about money. Every jackass on ESPN says the ACC is better than the Big East and they are going to keep pushing that agenda.

If the opportunity presents itself to go to another BCS conference we better take it and not look back. I know a lot of people don't like the ACC but it's a hell of a lot better than C-USA or the MAC.

I argue the exact opposite of you. More teams make the BCS AQ represent more teams and leave less out. The crowd here is pretty dismissive of Big East and C-USA teams, and yet ECU, USF, and Cincy consisently kick WV's a**, which I attribute to the dumbest coaches in college football, but that's another thread. I don't have to get deeply disappointed by Stewart yet again for another few months yet.

But again, I argue that expansion makes the Big East more valuable for a network contract, more representative for the BCS AQ, and more stable as a home for valuable additions. Right now, the Big 12 could try to poach Loiusville and Memphis and the Big Ten Rutgers and the ACC could go after Connecticut and Syracuse and there's no saying that any of them would invite WV. You may sniff your nose at C-USA, and you could find yourself in it in a heartbeat. Think Missouri just a week ago.

Concerning the watered down remark, repeated often here, all that's being suggested is essentially adding on out of conference games to in conference for the most part. How does getting beat by ECU out of conference more potent than being beat by ECU in conference? I would argue that is less watered down, not more.

The approach here seems to be Big 12 you can have Louisville and Memphis, Big Ten you can have Rutgers and Syracuse and Notre Dame, we're hoping the ACC will take us and Connecticut and Pittsburgh(?) and I don't know, whatever that list was, and the Big East can go be a basketball league and the BCS AQ can go to Mountain West and all is well. That's ok, I guess. It's one way to screw a lot of people over and yet make a lot of other people happy.

I just think the Big East has a vital role to play, can be even more potent a football and basketball network value, and has to expand to gain that value.

rd

rd · Joined: 13 Sep 2002 Posts: 8850

wvsouth1 wrote:
18-3 vs ECU
2-3 vs SF (hardly established yet)
14-3-1 vs cincy
when trying to establish credibility with writing, have FACTS.This hardly looks like a "consistent basis" to me :D

WVUfaninlex wrote:
And, with the exception of the game at ECU two years ago, I hardly think any of these teams kick our ass. In the last two years, UC has won the conference, and it took overtime and a bad review on a goal-line leap to beat us. Our games with USF are always close. ECU gave us the one beating, but otherwise... they're our whipping boy.

Adding ECU, UCF, Memphis, etc., does nothing to benefit the Big East. Orlando's the #19 market in the country? Doesn't matter unless people in Orlando are watching UCF games. I'd be willing to bet UF, FSO and Miami all have more fans in Orlando than UCF. Memphis (allegedly) has $10 million per year from FedEx? We'd just be paying it back with their annual TV and bowl game payouts.

If ND ever joins a football conference, it will be the Big 10. There are NO other teams who would strengthen the Big East. The ONLY way for us to be in a better conference than we are now is to join the SEC or ACC. And yes, the ACC hasn't been as good as the Big East the last couple years, but (1) adding us would improve the conference talent-wise, and (2) the schools in the ACC, on average, have way more resources and therefore a better chance to sustain success for a much longer period of time.

Those whipping boy historical records don't matter. Network contracts are for broadcasting future games, not historical games. ECU kicked WV's a** year before, and was a damn good game last year. Both were good enough to get national broadcasting. That's the kind of criteria you need to think about instead.

I don't see any reason it's going to get any easier going forward with Cincy and USF. The simple fact of the matter is that we're in a good competitive football and basketball league, not out of our league so to speak, and that means good games that will draw viewers. I agree, adding teams that don't play competitively does weaken value. I haven't seen that with USF, I haven't seen that with Cincy, and we won't see it with ECU.

UCF - USF has potential to be a big rivalry drawing tremendous interest in the Orlando - Tampa markets. We have an opportunity to make that Big East territory. Are there Florida, FSU, and Miami fans there too, you betcha, but we're talking about enough interest to fill stadiums and tune in games, that's all. I watch other games too, but I'll tune in WV when I can and Stewart isn't being particulary obnoxious, which is getting rarer these days. ESPN GamePlan regional coverage has been very good at including WV games so I've been lucky. A consistent Big East network versus the Big East broadcasts picked up would help in that tremendously in being able to watch WV.

Speaking of which, there's the lack of critical and innovative thinking again concerning the statement that the Memphis $10 million would just be paid back to them and so doesn't amount to anything. You have two news items. Big East wants to establish a Big East network, and FedEx has withdrawn their support of the Orange Bowl and is willing to redirect it to the BCS league that adds Memphis. Can you say Big East Network sponsored by FedEx?

rd