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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 2136
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To everyone posting here.

I just want to make a few short commnets here before I start doing some more research to make a longer comment.

I think the reason that Chandra was killed was to silence her. I don't think that Condit would get mad at someone and kill them. He might try to get even in some other way, but I don't think he would kill for anger.

Gary had got himself into an impossible position. I forget the chess term for that, but Condit was trapped. Rd, you called Condit an intimate of Chandra, which was true, but Condit was about to be exposed to the world as an intimate of Chandra. In the process a lot of ex intimates of Condit also became exposed.

So let us imagine (this is a hypothetical--that term they used a lot in the OJ trial if I remember right), let us imagine that it is May 15, 2001 (I think we can flush Condit out if we just keep the dogs after him, I guess we are the dogs). On May 15, 2001 or whatever day it might have occured, assuming the hypothetical that Chandra Levy had not disappeared on May 1, 2001, and was still alive, Congressman Gary Condit and Chandra Levy went together to visit Linda and Paul Katz at the Katz's home.

I don't think I have to say anything more. Each one of us can think up many possibilities. Condit was leading a life that he could let very few people know about, not Congress, not the President, not his constituents, not his wife, not his family, and on and on. Condit could not afford to do anything that would expose his secret life.

That is the end of the hypothetical. Condit thought, or hoped, that getting rid of Chandra would save his secrecy, but he was wrong.

Now the problem is how can we get this, or maybe a better version, into print? We don't want to slander or libel anyone, so that defrinitely has to be sidestepped, but there must be a way to show Condit's motive and reasoning without slandering him or libeling him.

Well I have some other things to do for a while. I think we can do it. We can do it by telling the truth, and being very very specific about what we say, and showing our reasons for doing so which is to find Jusice for Chandra.

benn
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kate and jane and anyone else looking for the article I referred to.

It is in Tabloids here.

Here is just the section I was talking about. The girl's name was Peanut. Well, I was close.

Quote:
Frequently Condit's relationships end in disaster.

One San Francisco girlfriend Condit nicknamed Peanut believed he was
going to dump his wife Carolyn and marry her, according to Flammini.

"One night I drove Gary to Peanut's home and waited outside, Everything
was perfect, but as soon as Peanut asked Gary to attend a holiday party
at her parent's house, he freaked out."

The congressman flew into a rage--giving Flammini a rare public glimpse
of Condit's sinister side that's
propelling lawmen to dig deep into his
bizarre double life. "Gary stormed out of the house and immediately
broke off the relationship," revealed Flammini.


http://www.justiceforchandra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=141

(I don't even think we need this episode to expose Gary. Just Linda Zamsky's remarks in her Statement telling about talking to Chandra about inviting Gary to the Katz home. That should expose Gary.)

Just set up the hypothetical of Congressman Gary Condit and Chandra Levy visiting Chandra's aunt and uncle say on May 17, 2001. What would that have done to Gary?

Maybe we should ask the Katzs about this hypothetical. They may approve or disapprove. If they did not like it we would not want to do it.

benn
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jane



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benn, thanks for finding that article - I was trying to find it for Kate because I knew I had read it, too. So it was Peanut, aka Joleen, who was naive enough to invite Condit to her parents'.

As for your idea, Benn, about the possibility of Chandra asking Condit to visit her relatives... Linda did suggest it to her niece, but Chandra said "he would never do that." Still, it's possible Chandra decided to run the idea by him anyway, and if she did, we can make an educated guess as to what his reaction would have been.

Speaking of of Condit's insistence on secrecy, I just read in one of Flammini's interviews that Condit once flipped because Flammini left Condit's flight schedule in the car where Carolyn might see it, and he never wanted her to know his flight schedules.
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benn



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jane

One wonders how much NE might have stretched the truth here and there. That is too bad also, because they get some stories that the regular newspapers can not get.

Well, I made the hypothetical up about Condit because he was falling into a trap of his own making. It would be only natural for some girls to invite him over to see their parents, but such a normal reaction would turn Condit into a mad bull, or something. Naturally he could not act normal because that would have cost him his Congressional seat, which it did.

A hypothetical might be a way to bring out Condit's faults without slandering or libeling him, just telling the truth in another time zone.

That is what would have made him murder Chandra, or have someone murder her, to cover up. But he was too late. It would seem more likely that he did it alone. He must have lived a strange life. Congressmen are usually out in the open all of the time, except when they are being closed doors figuring out how they are going to outsmart us.

I am trying to figure out ways to improve my hypothetical.

Maybe we will see Gary in September at Carolyn's trial.

benn
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, ok, Peanut. I was wondering who Penny was. Glad that got figured out.

benn, I agree with your thoughts. One very troubling complication is that Condit was in Modesto for Easter recess for "much of April", as he put it. We have something about him saying a relative was staying with him in early April, I think this to be a lie, certainly he will never name the relative he claims to be talking about. The point is is that I think he delayed his return to Modesto for Easter recess and used this as cover for the reason he stayed in town when he really was spending time with Chandra. On the other hand, no exact dates are ever given, I believe there was an indiication it was early April.

Certainly during some of the critical events such as Chandra's multiple phone calls to Condit when her parents were in town around her birthday in mid-April would have required Condit to call her from Modesto. Questions about OC Thomas may have been raised while he was in Modesto with Chandra's parents pressuring her for an answer to OC's claims, and I believe Condit was also in contact with Darrell as "Uncle Darrell" frequently called his home in Modesto. When Condit returned to DC, his wife joined him there within a week, Darrell disappeared from his job in Florida, and Chandra disappeared from the face of the earth.

rd
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benn



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 11:14 pm    Post subject: The Hypothetical. Reply with quote

I know what I am trying to say rd, but I am not sure that I am expressing it in the best way. Is there such a thing as trying to hang someone in a non agressive manner. ...:)

Well, Carolyn, as far as I know, was in Washington to attend the meeting of the Congressmen's wives. That is an event that probably did not happen very often, or maybe it did. Anyway that gave Carolyn at least one reason for going to Washington.

But Condit did not tell the police about Carolyn being in Washington, at least when the police first interviewed Condit. Good attorney Cotchett gave us the news on that, on live tv.

What I am trying to do with the hypothetical, if I can do that without running into any legal barriers, is to show that Condit could be intimate with his women friends, but he could not in any way befriend their families and friends.

Isn't that the old theory of isolating your victim? Therefore Condit had the motivation to make anyone disappear who was going to threaten his security by knowingly, or unknowingly, exposing him to the world.

Chandra had talked to her parents about Condit. Chandra had talked to Linda and Paul Katz about Condit. Chandra evidently talked to Condit about Jennifer Thomas. Without trying to guess what Chandra said to
Condit about Jennifer Thomas, Chandra was not becoming more intimate with Condit, but she was becoming almost a friend. Condit could never
allow any of his women friends to become his true friends. He could never meet the families of any of his women friends in a way that would reveal his
true relationship with his woman friend.

Chandra's parents, and Chandra's aunt and uncle, more or less knew about the intimate relationship of Condit and Chandra, but they only partly knew that Condit could never allow Chandra to become a friend.

Chandra's family began to tell Chandra to stay away from Condit, but the family never knew the danger that Chandra was in. That is what I am trying to point out in the hypothetical. It could be said I guess that Condit may not have had a motive to kill Chandra, but he had an
urgent necessity to kill Chandra. For Condit to kill Chandra was self defense. He had to kill Chandra. Chandra was going to cost him his whole career.

That is what I am trying to say, but to say that in a legally correct manner is another problem.

Condit had to kill Chandra. He had no other choice from his point of view. How do we try to show that to the world, and to the police?

The Hypothetical:

On a weekend in late May of 2001, Chandra Levy not having disappeared on May 1, 2001, and being still very much alive, she and Congressman Gary Condit went to the home of Chandra's aunt and uncle, Linda and Paul katz to visit.

What would have happened?

cheers
benn
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fallout



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Benn,

What you say here is very interesting:
"Chandra had talked to her parents about Condit. Chandra had talked to Linda and Paul Katz about Condit. Chandra evidently talked to Condit about Jennifer Thomas. Without trying to guess what Chandra said to
Condit about Jennifer Thomas, Chandra was not becoming more intimate with Condit, but she was becoming almost a friend."

This is something that I was thinkiing about when I began to look at some other suspects who might have known Chandra. I was thinking that the affair was cooling off already in April but the issue of Thomas' daughter caused a new, more hostile connection.

I'll have to go back through this thread and see what you mean about Chandra being alive in middle or late May. If that's a possibility its a blockbuster!

Cheers,
James
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fallout

I am behind on my messages.

Quote:
I'll have to go back through this thread and see what you mean about Chandra being alive in middle or late May. If that's a possibility its a blockbuster!


No, I am sorry fallout, I was making up an imaginary situation. I remember in the OJ trial they had a lot of hypotheticals. I hope I have not confused anyone.

By making up an imaginary situation sometimes it makes it easier to figure out how things actually did happen.

The reason I showed Chandra alive was I wanted to emphasize that Condit could not become friendly with any of the families of his girlfriends.

That would have been an impossibility for Condit. According to Vince Flammini Condit blew up at Peanut when she wanted him to meet her family. That would have blown Condit's secrecy completely apart, he would have lost his job, which he did anyway.

That is the reason that I think that Condit had to make Chandra disappear, however he did it. Chandra was going to expose Gary to the world, maybe just through her innocence. Is it possible that the same thing happened to Gary before but no one connected him up with a missing girl. Of course that is all hypothetical. We do not know that, or have any information on any other missing girls that he knew, except the girls that went to Alaska.

I am going to stop here and see where I am. No, I was not trying to say that Chandra was alive after May 1, 2001, only what might have happened, or not happened, if she had been.

It was an impossibility for Condit to become friends with his lady friends. He had to dump them after a while. I think he also dumped Chandra, but he had to do it in the worst way, by getting rid of her. Just my trying to interpret all of this.

benn
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jane



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Benn, you're looking at what would have happened if she hadn't disappeared. Looking at just what it was that Condit wanted to prevent.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, viewing from a different angle. I would add a few things, probably none too helpful. One is that while Carolyn did attend the Congresional Wive's Luncheon, she had not been known to attend in the last several years. On the othe rhand, she was on the Hospitality Committee that year, so may have attended for that reason. What would be revealing is just when she RSVP'd and made arrangements for the flight, and that information was not likely to have been requested by the DC Protectors, I mean Police.

Also, Condit stated very firmly to Chandra that if she said anything it would all over. I don't think he meant her life, but in the end maybe that's what he meant. In any event, sure Linda invited, but Chandra immediately said he'd never do it, as one can imagine, and there would be no forwarding of that invitation to Condit by Chandra. It was just a polite invitation from the aunt to a niece who's going on about her secretive boyfriend. To raise this invitation to Condit is unthinkable on several counts.

I do believe that Chandra's parents were not so polite in expressing their concern for Chandra after listening to OC Thomas. Maybe Chandra just made up "he explained it all", but clearly her parents were pressuring her to check into it and I believe she did. I also believe it cost her her life.

rd
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benn



Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Yes, viewing from a different angle. I would add a few things, probably none too helpful. One is that while Carolyn did attend the Congresional Wive's Luncheon, she had not been known to attend in the last several years. On the othe rhand, she was on the Hospitality Committee that year, so may have attended for that reason. What would be revealing is just when she RSVP'd and made arrangements for the flight, and that information was not likely to have been requested by the DC Protectors, I mean Police.

Also, Condit stated very firmly to Chandra that if she said anything it would all over. I don't think he meant her life, but in the end maybe that's what he meant. In any event, sure Linda invited, but Chandra immediately said he'd never do it, as one can imagine, and there would be no forwarding of that invitation to Condit by Chandra. It was just a polite invitation from the aunt to a niece who's going on about her secretive boyfriend. To raise this invitation to Condit is unthinkable on several counts.

I do believe that Chandra's parents were not so polite in expressing their concern for Chandra after listening to OC Thomas. Maybe Chandra just made up "he explained it all", but clearly her parents were pressuring her to check into it and I believe she did. I also believe it cost her her life.

rd



rd

Your answers here are what I intended when I started talking about the Hypothetical. At least we get some different points of view. I think that is quite different than waiting for a "tip" as Ramsey said they are doing.

Of course we don't know about the "something coming up," or whatever Billy Martin said.

Questions about Carolyn's flight planning are probably just the thing that news reporters and the police did not ask, as you say.

I agree with you about what you say about the invitation that Linda extended to Chandra, but that is the reason I brought up a hypothetical. Condit and Chandra would never have gone to visit Chandra's aunt and uncle. Because the idea of Condit really going anywhere with Chandra is so unthinkable anyone reading what I said has to come up with some other view.

Quote:
I do believe that Chandra's parents were not so polite in expressing their concern for Chandra after listening to OC Thomas. Maybe Chandra just made up "he explained it all", but clearly her parents were pressuring her to check into it and I believe she did. I also believe it cost her her life.


I have been thinking about Chandra talking to Condit and saying, "he explained it all." As you say Chandra could have made that up, but regardless there must have been something that Chandra and her mother were talking about. They must have believed what Otis Thomas had said. If Chandra really did mention this something to Condit, and he "explained it all," then there must have been something to explain, meaning that Otis was not lying. Explaining something does not sound like someone explaining a lie, or refuting a lie.

So here again we run into the problem of the news reporters not really getting the whole story, and the police and FBI maybe juggling the truth also. The FBI may have thought that it was easier to have Otis say he lied than to try to protect him from threats over the phone. I will skip over the rest of this, it seems like a lack of desire by some agencies to investigate Condit, a Congressman. Whether Condit "explained it all," or not Chandra and Susan Levy were certainly talking about something. A lie is not usually explained away.

I wonder if we could make more different kinds of hypotheticals and then poke them at news reporters, or the police, to see what kinds of answers they would give. News reporters usually don't answer much, but if something is poked at them maybe they will respond.

I got an email response right away from KGO talk show host Ronn Owens when I emailed him and said that it would be good to have retired FBI profiler Candice DeLong on KGO talking about Condit. He replied that she had been on many times doing just that. I missed her every time because I did not know about her and when she would be on.

Quote:
I also believe it cost her her life.


I don't know the exact reason Chandr was killed, but Condit was able to dump most of his girlfriends when they started to get too entangled with him.

With Condit's history we don't know if he was able to dump all of his past girlfriends. I have had a police sargeant tell me over the phone, "You don't know that." It was getting near the end of his shift, and he did not want to be bothered with what I was telling him.

I also had one of Congressman Tom Lantos staff members tell me, "You don't know that." I had brought up the subject of what was going to be done with the closed down Fort Ord in Monterey, California.

So we "don't know" if Condit was successful in dumping all of his past girlfriends. Could there have been another Chandra? We don't know.

So I will leave all of this dangling in the wind.

benn
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rd



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that if they leave bloody fingerprints then we "know that", otherwise if they just make them disappear without being seen until nature takes its course, they get away scot free. What a concept. I anticipate more attempts at getting rid of inconvenient women with this proven Modesto men technique.

rd
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benn



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, some murderers seem to be using the Modesto technique, but not all of them are successful. The McNabney murder did not work.

Also now with dna they are solving some murders that occurred years ago. There may be forensic evidence for Chandra and Laci that we do not know about.

The trial and punishment is not fast enough when they do find a legitimate suspect. The trial and punishment should take about three years or less, but now when someone is executed it may be 19 years after the victim was murdered.

benn
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jane



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Chandra would have broached the Otis/Jennifer Thomas story with Condit. She would have done it in such a way as to not make it obvious her mother had discussed it with her, because Chandra knew he wouldn't tolerate breaking the secrecy rules.

When "he explained it all" I'm thinking he would have used the nuts & sluts defense - yes, there was a girl who stalked him, etc.
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rd



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would normally agree with that, jane. That's exactly what the personalities of Chandra and Condit would indicate. I had considered that the "explained it all" was explained off as rumors about him spread by enemies, because he probably didn't know that Chandra was getting the story through her mother from those involved.

It would hinge on how well she knew OC and Jennifer. He had been the gardener for four years. I would expect she knew his personality reasonably well. Her mother knew of his daughter or daughters, twins we're told in the press, although I've yet to see side by side yearbook pictures of the two or any other mention of the twin sister in public records, and I would expect she at least knew of her. Would she believe this gentle, loving minister or his daughter had a vendetta against Condit? It's possible, but I think she would have indicated such to her mother, and she didn't.

The explanation is a mystery, and quite frankly at this point if the Levy's don't open up and deal with these tragic details in the press it will remain one.

rd
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