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OMG! Elizabeth Smart Found ALIVE!!!
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9273
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several points:

1) Anything Elizabeth did after a reasonably short time is suspect to being under the influence of "brainwashing" so anything can be explained away for that reason.

2) Everything Elizabeth says is suspect for the same reason.

3) Having said that, "brainwashing" is a platitude to explain that which is unacceptable, that she ran away. We knew that from the beginning when she met the kidnapper downstairs. That has been explained away as her protecting her family from harm or some other nonsense.

4) No, she would not be instantly "deprogrammed" and resume acting normal. Deprogramming is more brainwashing to counter the previous brainwashing. She's just Elizabeth, mature and different now, not brainwashed.

5) Whether she was willing or not, these people who took her took a minor. They hid her from a nationwide search. They renamed her. They are guilty and they are going to jail. Actually, they won't get out. They're already in jail.

6) There was a note left in November with a store clerk that said Elizabeth Smart was alive and well and she wanted her parents to know that, but she didn't want to go home. I can see why. She was back on the stupid harp as soon as she got home. Remember it was the harp she didn't play the night she was kidnapped. She'll get sick of it again soon enough.

rd
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EmmaPeel



Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 472
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Edited for redundancies)

Smart's Cousin May Also Have Been Target
Friday, March 14, 2003

SALT LAKE CITY -- Seven weeks after Elizabeth Smart disappeared, the man accused of abducting her might have tried to kidnap her 18-year-old cousin, investigators said Friday.

According to a July 24 sheriff's report, the screen on Jessica Wright's bedroom window was cut during the night and a chair was left beneath it. Jessica has been described as Elizabeth's favorite cousin.

A chair also was found under the kitchen window at the Smarts' home after Elizabeth disappeared from her bedroom about 2 a.m. on June 5. Elizbeth's father, Ed Smart, has said the window screen was cut from the outside.

Anyone think how it was that Elizabeth's *favorite* cousin may have been a target? Did she express a desire to have her cousin join them? I'm starting to wonder if her bond is so strong with the defendants that she might be at risk of running away when the trial comes up to avoid having to testify against them. I'm concerned also that the family doesn't want to bring anything that happened to her up--they'd better get that child some counseling quick!


The family has said the incident at the Wright residence was too strange to be merely a coincidence.

"We are now screening the entire case with the district attorney," said Salt Lake County Sheriff Aaron Kennard.

"It's more than a coincidence," he said. "You have this cousin who looks like Elizabeth and is good friends with Elizabeth."

Police found Elizabeth on Wednesday walking in a Salt Lake City suburb with Brian Mitchell, a drifter and self-styled prophet, and his wife, Wanda Barzee. They had been living under bridges and in tents, and panhandling.

When stopped by police, Elizabeth readily lied about her identity and said the drifters were her parents. The 15-year-old was nervous and agitated when asked to remove her sunglasses and gray wig and never asked about her family once the truth emerged, police said.

"There is clearly a psychological impact that occurred at some point," Salt Lake Police Chief Rick Dinse said.

Dinse said Mitchell had been excommunicated from the Mormon church, the religion Elizabeth was raised in, and considered himself a polygamist. But Dinse added, "I do not want to attach his relationship with Elizabeth in that fashion."

Asked about reports that Elizabeth had been taken to be a wife, the girl's aunt, Angela Dumke, said Friday that the family couldn't be certain, but they wouldn't be surprised.

"You never know. He's nuts," said Dumke, Ed Smart's sister. "This guy's probably involved in polygamy."

Mitchell had produced a 27-page manifesto, called "The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah," in which he wrote as a messenger of Jesus Christ. One passage suggests polygamy was taken away from the people as punishment and that a just God would restore the "blessing" of polygamy to those who truly followed Jesus.

Dumke said another theory of is that Mitchell's wife considered Elizabeth to be her child.

<snip>

Debbie Mitchell, Mitchell's ex-wife, told NBC's Today show Friday that Elizabeth was likely manipulated psychologically.

"I think there must have been a lot of brainwashing to begin with. I know that's how he worked in our marriage, I know how controlling he was," she said.

<snip>
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EmmaPeel



Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 472
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Several points:

1) Anything Elizabeth did after a reasonably short time is suspect to being under the influence of "brainwashing" so anything can be explained away for that reason.

2) Everything Elizabeth says is suspect for the same reason.

3) Having said that, "brainwashing" is a platitude to explain that which is unacceptable, that she ran away. We knew that from the beginning when she met the kidnapper downstairs. That has been explained away as her protecting her family from harm or some other nonsense.

4) No, she would not be instantly "deprogrammed" and resume acting normal. Deprogramming is more brainwashing to counter the previous brainwashing. She's just Elizabeth, mature and different now, not brainwashed.

RD, I pretty much agree with your thoughts. I was initially supicious that after all this she just goes back and everything is happy and perfect again. That doesn't make sense--if a person has gone though a traumatic situation for 9 months, you'd expect them to be wisked off into seclusion (not to mention counseling), not out smiling for family photos. The fact that she's suddenly well adjusted makes me wonder if she's putting up some act until she leaves again.

And everyone is tiptoeing around the S-E-X word. Well, duh...you think he took her and didn't molest her? He even supposedly married her. But la-la-la her parents don't seem to want to deal with that fact. They seem to just want everything to go back to the way it was. (They better just hope she isn't pregnant.) Well, what's going to happen when the parties stop and everything goes back to the way it was?

I'm not saying she wasn't manipulated, but I think there was definetly acceptance on her part that wasn't all brainwashing. She might have felt special and chosen. This is a girl raised up to be a good, docile mormon wife. IMHO she was already brainwashed to begin with.

I don't know that the note to the clerk was verified to be from her.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9273
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't Emma, but it was described as very realistic. It was found by (given to?) a store clerk in November. Given what we know now, for one thing that she's alive, for example, I think it's real. They should have already been able to confirm or deny based on handwriting though. That's a problem that they didn't.

rd
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peripeteia



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 1173
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emma I agree about the counselling, and certainly Patty Hearst could not have been more on point or direct about this in her interview posted on this thread. I was rather nauseated when I read in the interview with the family that they got her to play the harp, when she was reluctant, and to watch her favorite movie. Like a complete denial of what Elizabeth had been through, and the smile of Elizabeth is chilling, in that it is plastic. It is pathetic to think that their little girl is going to fit back in the mold that they had her in before, her life is forever changed, just like Patty Hearst stated. Why the family would deny that this girl is in shock and needs immediate treatment is anyone's guess, but one thing is for sure, they need to fess up to the reality of what this girl has been through, and now would be a good time to start. I hardly see the relevance of whether this guy Mitchell was after Elizabeth's cousin, what has this got to do with anything, well at least to make this public. This is something that I would have hidden from Elizabeth at this time, she has enough trauma to deal with, and as there is enough evidence to convict Mitchell, what the hell does an attempt to take her cousin have to do with anything, but to rip every shred of security away from the children of this family. Their world is insecure and fragile at this point. I think that this is psychologically more damaging than things already are at this point. I do think it is relevant to a court of law and to the investigators. What a bloody wacky world.


kate
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A vision sent me on the path of seeking justice for Chandra, nothing I've seen in print to date has diminished the vividness but only served to reaffirm the validity of this vision.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maggie, did you see how the father's quotes are gyrating around? 4 years, then 15 years since he talked to him. The daughter probably wouldn't take the reward, then should take the reward. And then his bizarre theology leading to two sons with their own bizarre theologies.

This is one whacked out family.

rd
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laskipper



Joined: 17 Sep 2002
Posts: 1232
Location: Northern Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading the Court Tv board about the Liz Smart case. Interesting info there. They are saying that Ed Smart is hiring an attorney for Liz. Guess they really don't want too much truth coming to the surface. I'm betting that they already have one picked out.

Another poster had brought up some of the silly statements that Lois had made. One was something about "she will never truly be yours" or words to that effect. I remember when she was making those statements. Looking into the camera as though she knew the kidnapper and making these seemingly senseless remarks.

Then there was the Betsy Ross speech that Lois made to Liz. Letting her know, I would imagine, that she would be accepted back into the family despite her transgressions.

There is lots more to this story than a simple kidnapping. And, the Smart family is just as whacked out as the Mitchell family. Smarts' just have more money.

When I have time, I will list some of the things that Mormons do in the ceremonies, at the higher levels of Mormonism. Not pretty. Involves lots of things that you would usually associate with Satanism. Orgies, alters, chants and the like. I had wondered if Liz was exposed to that sort of thing as yet. Ed Smart has been "blessed" by the Mormon church and I expect he holds a lofty position and has been to numerous ceremonies.

If there are no Mormons on board that would be offended.....

Have to wait until tomorrow though. I'm housesitting. Will wait for feedback.
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jane



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patty Hearst convinced me, when she was on LKL (transcript is posted earlier in this thread), that Elizabeth should have her own lawyer. Hearst said this would be useful for such things as heading off medical examinations being repeated by Mitchell's defence. She said that even the police and prosecution, though they might make some effort to be considerate, would not put Elizabeth's needs high enough. I'm really glad she'll have her own representation.
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laskipper



Joined: 17 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Liz Smart should have her own attorney but I'm sure that it will be a Mormon crony that will keep anything that could be perceived as negative (about Liz/Smarts/Mormon church and beliefs) out of the mix.

Mitchell is representing himself (what a fiasco) so his side will suffer as a result. Point is, the truth will not come out. Between Liz's attorney and the madman who is defending himself, what trial that will be.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Mitchell should be locked up and the key thrown away, but at the same time I'd like to see some honesty about this case for a change. The Smarts, as a group, are hiding something. Maybe more than one- something.

I don't know if Liz belongs at that house. Something just isn't right with that family, in spite of the fact that they serve up well on national tv (mostly).
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jane



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I noticed the evening the news about Elizabeth's return came out, on CNN, most of the pre-disappearance pics of Elizabeth showed a semi-sad face. Later, they seemed to choose pics that had a happier look, but many of the earlier photos showed her looking sad or unfocused, despite being a very attractive girl.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed a dramatic weight loss in the year before she was kidnapped too. In fact, the pictures shown by the media were of her two years earlier. Only later did they show a more recent gaunt picture of Elizabeth.

She sure gained a lot of weight from living under bridges and panhandling.

rd
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peripeteia



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On CBC last night I saw the interview with Shirl Mitchell; he tended to ramble and never made eye contact, infact he appeared to have his eyes closed most of the time, he kept looking downward. The most interesting thing that I got out of the interview was the very last question. Mitchell was trying to say that his son should get a reduced sentence as he didn't cut her up or murder Elizabeth and for that he should get a reduced sentence. The interviewer then asked, tell me about the good times with your Son, Mitchell answered he couldn't think of ANY!!!

I think that about says it all, about how distrubed mitchell jr. is, there was a picture of him when he was about 18 and he really looks daft. This is a sad tale of a family who is the epitomy of dysfunction. Mitchell senior definately seems a wacko himself.

Certainly Elizabeth needs a lawyer, as you stated Jane, that Patty Hearst strongly suggested this. I agree, that the she needs to be protected in that she is in a very fragile state. Stockholm syndrome which is something like post traumatic stress disorder, although both are treatable, the effects are long lasting, if not requiring a life time to get over. Elizabeth does not need the world to know the details of what happened to her, this could only serve to worsen her symptoms, I think given her age that the court should be closed to the media. It also matters little if she was consenting, she at her age is not capable of giving consent emotionally or legally. Certainly no matter how one shakes this, she has been victimized. What she does need is therapy immediately, and on going for a very long time.

kate
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EmmaPeel



Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 472
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Maggie. Man was that a puff piece or what? They only had one opposing person, briefly quoted. Had this been the Catholic church or some (God forbid) fundamental Christian church, you would have had all kinds of cut overs to people with opposing views.

[MW]: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham
Young said, "Cain slew his brother and the Lord put a mark upon him
which is the flat nose and black skin."

[GBH]: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those
little flicks [?] of history.


My...I don't remember MY Bible saying that.

Notice even in this puff piece how many "bumps" and "flicks" he waves off?

And of course they don't want to talk about the time Brigham Young order the massacre of settlers that became known as the Meadow Mountain Massacre, either.
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EmmaPeel



Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Shirl Mitchell says there is no justification for the alleged abduction but that his son's actions should be put in perspective.

"Brian is the one who got that girl back safely ... Now, that's quite an accomplishment," the senior Mitchell told CNN on Saturday.

"How many of these fiends, degenerates, take little kids and dismember their bodies or kill them outright and bury them. Now when they're getting to be overcritical of Brian, they should remember that," he said, urging that Mitchell not be "dumped out as garbage."

Boy this guy is real piece of work! Got her back safely--I guess he thinks his son should get an award for not killing her? The nut obviously doesn't fall too far from the tree!

Quote:
Mitchell's father, 83, who described himself as a voyeur and the author of two volumes about his personal theology that include explicit sexual content, also acknowledged showing his son pictures of genitalia at the age of seven or eight. The father said he believes his erotic literature contributed to an after-school episode of indecent exposure when Mitchell was a teenager.

Yeah, he exposed himself to a 3-4 year old neighbor. That's telling. Unless his record was expunged, I wonder why the police didn't find that out when they were doing background checks?

And when will some clever reporter check into DAD'S record and background. Bet there were some accusations of molestation, if not arrests in HIS past!

Quote:
A few weeks in juvenile detention, bouts with alcohol and drugs -- including an LSD trip that put him in the hospital -- were other contributing factors, the elder Mitchell said. He added that the family suspected Brian Mitchell was abused in daycare.

Sounds to me like the abuse started at HOME.

Quote:
Mitchell's father also told CNN about an incident when he drove his son to a park and told him "you are on your own." He said he wanted his son to "appreciate having a home just by being loose in the world for a little while."

"That might have set his mind in that pattern. Now he is wandering around the whole country that way," the father said, referring to Mitchell's life as a panhandling drifter who preached to the homeless and passers-by.

Gee...actions have consequences...ya think?

Quote:
Although they have rarely talked in the past 15 years, the father says he now feels "equally responsible" for what has happened to Mitchell, adding that he'll do whatever he can to help reduce any sentence his son might face.

Great...from abuser to enabler. Shirl and Scott Peterson's mom ought to get together.

Quote:
He also said Mitchell's sister, Lisa, should receive the reward offered for Elizabeth's return.
"She's the one that turned Brian in," he said, referring to information that his daughter had provided authorities. The father told CNN that he has suggested his daughter use the reward money to hire a high-powered attorney to defend Mitchell "so that he'll get off with as little a sentence as possible."

SEVERAL people turned Brian in. I don't even remember his sister being mentioned as one of them. But his step sons and his ex-wives sure did. Then there's the couple who actually saw him and called 9-11. Why waste the reward money on an attorney so he can get off. Face it, pops, you're little freak needs to be shut up for the rest of his life.
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jane



Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen any evidence in the Bible that God made Cain and his descendants black.

The Bible does say that God put a mark on Cain (doesn't say it would pass to his descendants - doesn't say what the mark consisted of, either), but the mark was to protect Cain, in case people would want to avenge Abel's death by killing Cain.

Reading the passage in Genesis makes this clear IMO.
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