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Jennifer Kesse Disappearance Discussion
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote: The one I'm adding below is what I call the "original" from your Blow-Ups page. I'm just adding it for ease of comparison, but do you know how it came to have that slide-bar on the bottom, RD? Was it released like that, or is that from a screenshot you did of it? I don't think it is even on the Jennifer Kesse.com site anymore. The only place I can find it is here.

Yeah, the third image was not made available with the first two, e.g. police and Kesses. I ran across that when I started my research in 2007. It was on a photo site, was linked from one of the Kesse forums, etc.

I don't know what screen it was on, but clearly was not provided or even downloadable. Those Flash image presentations were/are that way. You can click right and left for next image etc. but the Save Image is not available because displayed with Flash, so all you can do is take a screenshot.

I never really considered that. Interesting. I checked my image archives and there is a actually a 4th image that was made available by whoever captured these and uploaded. The 4th image is timestamped a second later, 13:00:29, and same as 3rd except nothing peeking out from the palm tree.

I totally forgot there was a 4th image.

What that tells me is that it's possible that image 1 is on the extreme start of 13:00:27 and image 2 on the extreme end and still 13:00:27, and that would make the delay 1 second or so, not 1.5 seconds.

Two seconds to clear through that surveillance from one end to the other is hard for me to believe. Well basically I don't believe it. but that's what the timestamps say.

Great question, Nancy.
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Markybug



Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Posts: 53
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is that dumpster located in relation to jenns car , and where the poi was walking?

Re the podcast, i have found it very interesting and informative, tho the alleged sightings from far away i dont think were worth broadcasting. Th ones from nearby , ie at the church and the woman who was convinced jenn came to her about renting another flat? were worth looking into further. The chap who thought he saw the poi crying? against a fence i didnít rate personally..
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Nancy wrote:
Speaking of that, though, do you know how it happened that she was at the Mosiac first; and then taken to the HOG? My understanding is that Jenn's vehicle was discovered at about 8:10 am and within the hour Bo and her handler were brought in. But it doesn't say where they were "brought in" from. Had they been at the Mosiac just by coincidence?
Now that is interesting. if they brought Bo to HOTG without going to Mosaic, without investigators in her car looking for stuff first, then I will have to retract most of what I just said.

I would be glad to if that is actually what happened. I would be pleased to be wrong.
Word bolded by me: This is where we really are, though.

Actually, I'm in the same boat as Elk. There is lots on this forum I haven't read. Maybe I'll get some clues if I get at it. :)
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Elk573



Joined: 08 Aug 2018
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Nancy! Iím taking some time this morning to read through old posts and also the Jennifer Kesse guestbook. It amazes me to see how many people have taken the time to try and help with this case and still there are more questions than answers. So sad.

I actually found a post written by rd back in 2009 that may relate to the punch list workers I mentioned in an earlier post... Still doing more research to see what else I find during that timeframe.
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest question of all is: Just where is Jennifer?

Right now, as you read this, she is laying somewhere.
In all probability her missing belongings are with her. (if they weren't placed in a dumpster)

Where are her car keys? The POI must have had them in the photos.
Do LE have them?
Did LE find any belongings? Anything, even a single item?

Surely LE are holding something back. The question is just what are they keeping secret.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Thanks for giving me an opportunity to better explain it, Nancy.

The time stamps on the three images are 27 seconds, 27 seconds, and 28 seconds after top of the hour (says 13:00 but was 12:00).

The cameras send images to something to store them, my research was this was likely VCR. The cameras don't have storage for the images, and I've read the storage device timestamps the images.

Take into account that this is not camera video streaming. If it were storage space would fill up rapidly. And you have multiple surveillance cameras sending images.

So to make storage space manageable the cameras have adjustable delays between images. I've see 1.5 seconds as a common delay. I've written a lot on this in the Jennifer Kesse POI photo analysis links thread, but it was ten years ago or so. There were tables for security administrators on how many hours could be stored based on the delay. The shorter the delay, the faster the tape would fill up and have to be changed.

We have a delay between the camera taking the next image, and we have time required for someone to walk a distance. Both things say two images in the same second and a third with POI at the palm tree in another second is not what happened. In other words, the time stamps were not applied accurately as the POI moved about.

We do know the third image is 28 seconds, and we know that the prior images took more than a second to happen. How much time? It could be 5 seconds. We don't know.

But the images for whatever reason got processed very closely together even though there should be at least 3 seconds reflected between the first and third image timestamps.

What that means is we can't take 13:00:27 seconds and say that's 20 seconds after the last timestamp we saw in the other surveillance camera because the 13:00:27 seconds isn't possible. It's backed up and grouped with two more images (27 and 28 seconds). If 27 for first was accurate, it would be at least 28 for second and at least 30 for third.

It's also reflected in how long it would take a person to walk from gate to palm tree. To take those steps across the gate in same second is unreasonable, and to get to the palm tree and turn around in another second is again unreasonable.

The image timestamps don't reflect the reality we know exists, and so we can guess what the first image timestamp really should be but it starts eating into those 20 seconds. It's sooner than 13:00:27.

How much sooner, and do we have as much as a 15 second gap? I don't know, but at some point it has less of a what did he do in that gap feel to it.

Probably walk the distance from the range of the first surveillance camera to the range of the gate surveillance camera. You have actually posted images on that. That is a lot of analysis that has been done. I should take another look at that "gap" map.

thanks Nancy.
This helps immeasurably, RD. Thank you so much.

I've been watching and re-watching the video this morning, and another interesting observation from the video--at least at the link I'm watching--is that we can see the clock for Camera 2 running down to the hour plus 00:07. (Although it seems to skip at the hour plus 00:04 mark, so maybe it is only 6 seconds).

Then it switches to Camera 3 and we are at the hour plus 00:24 seconds. But the POI does not appear in the video until the hour plus 00:26.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Yeah, the third image was not made available with the first two, e.g. police and Kesses. I ran across that when I started my research in 2007. It was on a photo site, was linked from one of the Kesse forums, etc.

I don't know what screen it was on, but clearly was not provided or even downloadable. Those Flash image presentations were/are that way. You can click right and left for next image etc. but the Save Image is not available because displayed with Flash, so all you can do is take a screenshot.

I never really considered that. Interesting. I checked my image archives and there is a actually a 4th image that was made available by whoever captured these and uploaded. The 4th image is timestamped a second later, 13:00:29, and same as 3rd except nothing peeking out from the palm tree.

I totally forgot there was a 4th image.

What that tells me is that it's possible that image 1 is on the extreme start of 13:00:27 and image 2 on the extreme end and still 13:00:27, and that would make the delay 1 second or so, not 1.5 seconds.

Two seconds to clear through that surveillance from one end to the other is hard for me to believe. Well basically I don't believe it. but that's what the timestamps say.

Great question, Nancy.
I'm finding this interesting. Today, anyway. :)

I have screen shots of the following:

capture @ 13:00:24 POI is not visible.

capture @ 13:00:25 POI is still not visible.

capture @ 13:00:26 POI is at first gate post.

capture @ 13:00:27 POI is still at first gate post.

capture @ 13:00:27 POI has moved to second gate post.

capture @ 13:00:28 POI is still at second gate post.

capture @ 13:00:28 POI is standing beside palm tree.

capture @ 13:00:29 POI is still standing beside palm tree.

capture @ 13:00:29 POI is no longer visible. (Palm tree is visible but mushroom beside it has vanished. Oh, wait. Maybe it was one of those magic mushrooms. {he he} Just saying).

no frame showing for 13:00:30

capture @ 13:00:31 POI is not visible.

capture @ 13:00:32 POI is not visible. End of available footage.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several comments on that. Excellent info, Nancy.

I've often wondered why first camera was provided in video form and second camera was provided as still shots. I take it you have second camera video form from which the still shots were taken. I haven't seen anyone even refer to it through the years, even thouh I knew it must exist. (The original VCR tape.)

I've mentioned this before in answer to questions in the past, but in case not obvious the camera only records an image after each delay, although the shutter is open the whole time. So it's an accumulative blur during movement.

That's why there is only those stills made available. There is no change in the picture between those stills (as in the video from the first camera, sort of jerk from one position to the next).

I don't understand how that video of timestamps is generated. The whole point of delays and not streaming is to save storage space. The images stored are actually only those stills. So how are the stills stretched out with timestamps during the delays?

My guess is software that reads the VCR and streams output with a realtime timestamp, but must know what the camera delay setting was. At each configured delay it would update the stream it's writing. This would be seen as the image not changing as noted above, POI at gate in :26 and :27, for example.

All I can say is the POI was in a hurry to get out of there. That is really moving.

The 4th still was at your :29 capture and of course there could have been more made that wouldn't change until something moved into the picture. Just to show that POI didn't turn around and re-enter the picture.

Some great info. Adds to my understanding everytime we post. Thanks.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Markybug wrote:
Where is that dumpster located in relation to jenns car , and where the poi was walking?

I'll recall Nancy's "gap" map for this purpose, with my thanks again.



The dumpster is on down lane where the POI was headed, down below pool, just beyond the tennis courts, on other side of lane like where car is parked. On a map it's where the right turn lane starts on Texas for Americana.

Speaking of the gap, I just don't get the mystery around it from that audioboom transcript. A mystery why that gap is not on surveillance camera? This is not DoD at Fort Knox. There's already non-trivial surveillance going on, a camera positioned to record traffic entering and exiting at Texas and on by the pool, and a camera surveilling the gate of the pool, again where people enter and exit.

These have specific purposes, recording entrances and exits. It is peripheral so to speak to what degree the coverage converges. If someone says why isn't the area along the pool covered, one can ask why isn't the area beyond the pool covered, why isn't there surveillance of every area in Huntington on the Green? I don't get it. Where do these people come up with this stuff?
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elk573 wrote:
Nice Nancy! Iím taking some time this morning to read through old posts and also the Jennifer Kesse guestbook. It amazes me to see how many people have taken the time to try and help with this case and still there are more questions than answers. So sad.

I actually found a post written by rd back in 2009 that may relate to the punch list workers I mentioned in an earlier post... Still doing more research to see what else I find during that timeframe.


I hope I knew more about it then than I do now. :)
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Markybug wrote:
Where is that dumpster located in relation to jenns car , and where the poi was walking?

Re the podcast, i have found it very interesting and informative, tho the alleged sightings from far away i dont think were worth broadcasting. Th ones from nearby , ie at the church and the woman who was convinced jenn came to her about renting another flat? were worth looking into further. The chap who thought he saw the poi crying? against a fence i didnít rate personally..
BBM - I think it is close to where I place it below. (The little red, unmarked dot on the other side of the pool is where Jenn's car was parked).

However, I'm a little bit uneasy with the fact that a lot of areas may look similar to someone like me who is unfamiliar with the actual location. (I'm sure each group of units have their own dumpster; and there are probably a lot that look the same).

So, here is a recent screenshot showing a dumpster location which is easier to confirm although with this one I have to worry that the dumpster existed in this location in 2006.

But I do believe (at least I'm hopeful) it is one and the same dumpster location as shown in the linked image from Photobucket. Notice it's beyond the camera range.




This one is unnecessary to add, but I couldn't resist because it offers the view of the lane where the POI is first picked-up on video driving Jenn's car past the pool and down to the third parking spot. (Even though the parking spot is not visible--he simply continued straight past the pool and deeper into the lane. Then he got out of her vehicle and walked around the pool).



In other images we have posted in the past, we noted how the palm tree wasn't looking so healthy. We see it has been removed now.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
The dumpster is on down lane where the POI was headed, down below pool, just beyond the tennis courts, on other side of lane like where car is parked. On a map it's where the right turn lane starts on Texas for Americana.
Thank you, RD. Sorry to appear to duplicate. I was having so much fun getting the new screen shots, I forgot to refresh before I posted.

rd wrote:
Speaking of the gap, I just don't get the mystery around it from that audioboom transcript. A mystery why that gap is not on surveillance camera? This is not DoD at Fort Knox. There's already non-trivial surveillance going on, a camera positioned to record traffic entering and exiting at Texas and on by the pool, and a camera surveilling the gate of the pool, again where people enter and exit.

These have specific purposes, recording entrances and exits. It is peripheral so to speak to what degree the coverage converges. If someone says why isn't the area along the pool covered, one can ask why isn't the area beyond the pool covered, why isn't there surveillance of every area in Huntington on the Green? I don't get it. Where do these people come up with this stuff?
I see now that there is no mystery, but I did originally believe.

So many crimes have been "coincidentally" solved by cameras intended only for security purposes of their owners that we have come to expect too much.

Even law enforcement have fallen victim to the "hand-it-to-me or forget-it" attitude to some extent.

In Jennifer's case, I think we all desperately want to believe there is something more.

I keep asking myself--how can there not be? It leads to some futile dot-connecting, I guess.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your dumpster answer is so much better than mine. It's like A+ vs C-.

I describe it, you show it. Proving once again a picture is worth a thousand words, which is about my average post word count.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9237
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some searching and my guess about how this is done was confirmed, i.e. time lapse VCR surveillance recording written out to digital video file.

There's enough detail here to see how that worked.

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=33577

It just so happens that all the info I was reading on this forum was from 2012 but the forum is current and very well done. Kudos to these knowledgeable people.
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the picture showing where the POI was last standing. Then look at the traffic.
A lot of people must have have seen the POI. The POI must have been the equivalent of the invisible man.
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