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Jennifer Kesse Disappearance Discussion
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9241
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote:
rd wrote:
The image clips are excellent. Thanks for that.

BBM - I think the head would not protrude beyond that post from that angle. I also will add that his arms are not seen and probable in front of him perhaps holding something as far as blockage of light goes.
Okay, thanks. That was something I've been wondering about.

And, yes, that's really strange about his arms; and that "thing" that looks like an arm in a short sleeved shirt hanging in back.

Strange, convoluted, frustrating--all of the above.
Indeed, Nancy.

rd wrote:
BBM - This is the direct route to the corner of Americana and Texas, a direct exit from HOTG, and least chance of encounter with residents, employees, and apartment management. Walking up the sidewalk between the buildings would maximize that for example.
I'm not sure if it would be more direct than continuing on Huntington Green Court to Texas Avenue, and straight down the sidewalk to Americana Blvd. (As the dog tracked, actually).
I happened to have responded to that in previous post.

And I can't understand why people weren't around the pool at high noon. Could it have been because of the "winter" weather? (Sorry, but I ask that in all seriousness as I'm from a much colder climate. No-one would use an outdoor pool in January in my corner of the world, I assure you. However, with the beautiful weather in Florida, I think they would; but is that not correct?)
I live here in Florida in a similar type apartment complex (something between Mosaic and HOTG, gated but similar layout apartments). I honestly don't know exactly how it is I know the pool is there but not usable in January, I for sure never tried. The pool isn't drained but it also isn't maintained for swimming all winter. You could go and sit by the pool but the water would be pretty doggone cold.

Thus the confusion above leaves me unsure as to whether or not it would be reasonable for him to assume that he would have a higher chance of being seen by someone if he took the path instead of walking in front of the pool, or even straight to the corner of Huntington Green Court and South Texas Avenue.


rd wrote:
On the other hand, had POI known about the surveillance cameras, he could have parked where he did knowing that surveillance camera 3 let us say aimed directly at that spot was not functioning, but probably would have walked the sidewalk instead of swinging around the pool in sight of the surveillance cameras. It is only through extreme luck that he doesn't have closeups in image 1 amd image 2.
Do you ever think that with the quality of the cameras, we would not be any further ahead if his side face profile was visible? Look at all the debate about the helmet; wait, the hat; wait, the man bun; wait, it's a woman. OMG On it goes.

We have a face view; wait, it's a growth on the tree; wait, he strolled away never looking back.

(I'm not even going to touch the debate about his arm and his physical body characteristics, etc, etc).

So, if he had any knowledge of the HOG and the condition of those cameras; he may have been willing to take the low risk involved to fulfill his need to taunt.



rd wrote:
I say probably in that I don't know what other surveillance cameras there were. If there were other surveillance cameras he might have turned right coming in the gate and parked down the lane, crossing over texas down there, and walking down other side of street in the parking lot, etc.
That's another thing, too. We don't know if he turned off Texas Avenue by making a left turn or a right turn--the camera first picks him up driving Jennifer's vehicle almost at the corner of Huntington Green Court and Texas Avenue but he is solidly straight on the court. It does appear that he took that entrance into the HOG, not the one above, though.

But, seriously, isn't that luck, too? How much luck can one person have?



rd wrote:
Bottom line is he clearly doesn't know he is being surveilled. Which is ironic because that's what he checking for behind the tree but checking if a person has noticed him.
I find this is not such a clear bottom line for me. He took all the time he need to straighten and center the vehicle in the parking spot; he did something inside the vehicle for 32 seconds. If the statement is true that the only known fingerprints inside the vehicle were Jennifer's, that means he wasn't wiping the interior. He may have wore gloves--but he even took her keys. Why not leave them in the vehicle?

Could he have walked to the palm tree specifically to turn and look back? How many spots would offer that line of vision? Maybe he knew just where to go for that exact line of vision.

Could he have sent someone a signal by his earlier actions and was looking back to see if it was acknowledged?

Could he have simply wanted a moment to admire his cleverness in abandoning Jennifer Kesse's vehicle in a crime and drug riddled neighborhood--realizing the extra pain it would cause Jennifer's parents?
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There does seem to be an issue with BO's tracking.
RD is right in that there should have been video evidence of the POI back-tracking.
Why then did BO follow a scent down South Texas Avenue?

Whatever, Bo wound up at Mosaic. If Bo was off her game she could have wound up anywhere.

This leads too another question.
Why did the POI head straight back to Mosaic?
Was it because he worked there?
Was he going to check that any evidence wasn't overlooked and had been cleaned up?

Why was Jennifer's car left at HOTG?
Was it because the POI was in familiar surroundings?
Because it was a good hiding place with an easy walk back to Mosaic?
That walk would have taken 15 to 20 minutes.

How many pedestrians are there using Americana/Conroy at the time the POI walked down there?
I ask because it seems nobody noticed the POI?

I'm reminded of a murder mystery where someone asked 'who made the foot prints in the snow? Answer; why, it was the postman. Everyone saw him but nobody noticed him.

How many people saw the POI but never noticed him.
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to bore people witless but this snippet on Bloodhounds is very thought provoking:

Once the bloodhound identifies the trail, it will not divert its attention despite being assailed by a multitude of other odors. Only when the dog finds the source of the scent or reaches the end of the trail will it relent. So potent is the drive to track, bloodhounds have been known to stick to a trail for more than 130 miles.

We need to try and find a reason for BO tracking down South Texas avenue.
Nancy's incredible response to my initial post on BO surely deserves thorough analysis.
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Markybug



Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Posts: 56
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gap in fence is very important imo , local knowledge?
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9241
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nothing boring about it, thanks
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Elk573



Joined: 08 Aug 2018
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-

Iím new to the board and would like to jump into this discussion! Iíve been reading as much as I can about Jenniferís disappearance and think itís great to see so many people talking about it and trying to solve this sad mystery. My heart really goes out to her and to her family and itís terrible that there have been no answers in over 12 years.

Nancy- I wanted to thank you for the post from yesterday that had all the pictures! I took some time and studied each one. The pictures really helped in bringing some things together.

Regarding the broken fence... I read a theory somewhere that seems to make sense and then Iím going to try and connect it to Bo.

First, as discussed in the podcast and on some of the discussion boards, the Mosaic apartment keys for all units were stolen about a month before Jenniferís disappearance. Someone came forward on the podcast saying that they heard someone trying to get into their apartment using keys! Luckily they had a deadbolt so whoever it was could not get in.

Therefore, it sounds like whoever stole the Mosaic keys were then using them to try and break into the apartments. One of the theories I heard was that the thieves may have been using the back fence to access the Mosaic grounds So they wouldnít have to go through the security gate and possibly be seen.

Now hereís where I tie in Bo...

If Bo tracked someone from HOG to the broken fence and then to the stairs leading to Jenniferís apartment, could it be possibly that he had picked up on an earlier scent from someone who was stealing from the apartments?

If that is the case, is it possible that the person who was stealing from the apartments is one in the same as the person who was involved with Jenniferís disappearance?

I tried to find online if anyone had ever been arrested for the Mosaic apartment thefts but unfortunately I didnít find anything on this.

Thoughts?
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NapQueen



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elk - this is really interesting. I guess it goes back to what was used to establish the baseline/initial scent trail for Bo to follow. It could be something from Jennifer personally, something from her car that was left behind, or some other unknown evidence.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
Yes, a fantastic presentation, Nancy. This is so helpful to everyone trying to understand Jennifer's disappearance.

A couple of notes. As you mentioned in your presentation, POI would be in the pool gate surveillance again if he backtracked. So he didn't backtrack.
But, could there be a chance, even a slight one, that LE choose not to release that part? The very last thing we see in the video is the POI standing at the palm tree--how can we be sure that that is all there is? I don't think that law enforcement has to reveal all they have even to the victim's family. Or, perhaps the Kesses do know more exists and it does not show a clearer image of the POI; so a compromise was reached to show only a portion to the public.



rd wrote:
In addition, one would consider purpose of walking out the car entrance. There is no sidewalk there. One could walk in grass or the Texas turn lane down to Americana, but that's actually what is accomplished by walking down the HOTG lane by the pool. It goes to the front where there is a sidewalk along Americana. In other words, it is a natural walking lane to get to the corner. It is not out of the way, it is the way.
BBM - Well, okay. The Google Map I view shows the imagery from 2018, and it looks like there is still no sidewalk on that side of Texas Ave.; however, I believe there is one (at least currently) on the other side.

It's interesting, too, because there are two bus stops on the side with no sidewalk, one near the entrance/exit we are talking about and one near the entrance/exit just above. I guess my point would be that people must use the side of the street to get to the bus stop, maybe?



rd wrote:
With the backing up and pulling in again, I submit that it is difficult to take a strange car and turn in straight into a parking spot. Actually very difficult. The turn radius varies so much. I have a similar year car (2004), and after all these years I still don't swing it right sometimes to pull in straight.

If you don't pull in straight you are across a couple of parking spaces and the car would draw a lot of attention. It's not an option to back up and pull in straight unless you are on the run and ditching the car and don't care. If he was doing that, he could have ditched it across the street in the strip mall parking lot. Plenty of room over there. He wasn't ditching it, he was planting it.

And I don't think there is any doubt that he was looking back to see if indeed he had been noticed and was being watched. I'm not sure what he would have done had that been the case, but I believe he would have moved the car and tried again where he wasn't observed as the person parking the car. Just my opinion.
Planting it? Yes. But how does a plant fit in with your theory of a quick look back to see if anyone had seen him? In your opinion, why would he be planting it? From my view point, I see someone simply moving the car from the Mosiac to the HOG to divert attention would be more like a ditching.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9241
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

welcome, Elk. Is that your preferred handle? Nice first post. Looking forward to your contributions to the discussion.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rd wrote:
I happened to have responded to that in previous post.
Yes, and thank you. I truly hadn't seen it when I posted.

rd wrote:
I live here in Florida in a similar type apartment complex (something between Mosaic and HOTG, gated but similar layout apartments). I honestly don't know exactly how it is I know the pool is there but not usable in January, I for sure never tried. The pool isn't drained but it also isn't maintained for swimming all winter. You could go and sit by the pool but the water would be pretty doggone cold.
Ohhh. Well, that's makes it clear as to why there is no-one around the pool. :)
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myserty64



Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Posts: 81
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard from me too Elk. The more ideas we get here the better.
Your post was very enlightening too.

There is no doubt in my mind Bo tracked a murderer.

The hole in the fence was a 'short cut' I presume.
We humans tend to like short cuts.

The fact there were stolen keys adds another dimension to this mystery.

RD's explanation regarding the POI's difficulty in parking the car is a good one too.
I have the same issue with my car. I nearly always have to make two attempts to get it straight between the lines.
I blame it on the bonnet/hood which drops way sharply and I can't see the end of it.
That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it. :-)
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9241
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy wrote:
rd wrote:
Yes, a fantastic presentation, Nancy. This is so helpful to everyone trying to understand Jennifer's disappearance.

A couple of notes. As you mentioned in your presentation, POI would be in the pool gate surveillance again if he backtracked. So he didn't backtrack.
But, could there be a chance, even a slight one, that LE choose not to release that part? The very last thing we see in the video is the POI standing at the palm tree--how can we be sure that that is all there is? I don't think that law enforcement has to reveal all they have even to the victim's family. Or, perhaps the Kesses do know more exists and it does not show a clearer image of the POI; so a compromise was reached to show only a portion to the public.



rd wrote:
In addition, one would consider purpose of walking out the car entrance. There is no sidewalk there. One could walk in grass or the Texas turn lane down to Americana, but that's actually what is accomplished by walking down the HOTG lane by the pool. It goes to the front where there is a sidewalk along Americana. In other words, it is a natural walking lane to get to the corner. It is not out of the way, it is the way.
BBM - Well, okay. The Google Map I view shows the imagery from 2018, and it looks like there is still no sidewalk on that side of Texas Ave.; however, I believe there is one (at least currently) on the other side.

It's interesting, too, because there are two bus stops on the side with no sidewalk, one near the entrance/exit we are talking about and one near the entrance/exit just above. I guess my point would be that people must use the side of the street to get to the bus stop, maybe?



rd wrote:
With the backing up and pulling in again, I submit that it is difficult to take a strange car and turn in straight into a parking spot. Actually very difficult. The turn radius varies so much. I have a similar year car (2004), and after all these years I still don't swing it right sometimes to pull in straight.

If you don't pull in straight you are across a couple of parking spaces and the car would draw a lot of attention. It's not an option to back up and pull in straight unless you are on the run and ditching the car and don't care. If he was doing that, he could have ditched it across the street in the strip mall parking lot. Plenty of room over there. He wasn't ditching it, he was planting it.

And I don't think there is any doubt that he was looking back to see if indeed he had been noticed and was being watched. I'm not sure what he would have done had that been the case, but I believe he would have moved the car and tried again where he wasn't observed as the person parking the car. Just my opinion.
Planting it? Yes. But how does a plant fit in with your theory of a quick look back to see if anyone had seen him? In your opinion, why would he be planting it? From my view point, I see someone simply moving the car from the Mosiac to the HOG to divert attention would be more like a ditching.


I don't think there's any way in the world that the OPD have pictures of the POI walking back in the lane and didn't release them. The bars wouldn't be directly across his face, it would be another perspective for identifying him, judging his height, perspective on his hair/hat, etc.

They were looking, belatedly, for public's help in identifying the POI. How about hey, we have some pictures where the POI's face is obscured by fence rails but we're not going to show pictures where he's farther away from the fence. Just because we like saying he walked away and never looked back.

The one bus stop that I recall on Texas was across the street from the entrance, near the entrance into the strip mall. There were also bus stops on corners of Americana and Texas, not that far away.

I just took a look at Street View and there is also a bus stop at the entrace into HOTG. No sidewalk, just a bench to sit after you walk out the entrance, or cross the street to that bus stop if you're going north on Texas. A sidewalk over there. Was there when I visited HOTG years ago.

Basically the bench bus stops are where people can walk out the apartments at a car entrance and wait for a bus. No sidewalk needed.

A plant is no good if the person planting it is spotted. The whole point is to cast doubt about who in HOTG stole it and parked it there.

Geez, I tried to drive street view into HOTG and park where the POI parked. It will sit right at the entrance looking at the pool but won't go in. Pretty amazing.
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rd



Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 9241
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
Welcome aboard from me too Elk. The more ideas we get here the better.
Your post was very enlightening too.

There is no doubt in my mind Bo tracked a murderer.

The hole in the fence was a 'short cut' I presume.
We humans tend to like short cuts.

The fact there were stolen keys adds another dimension to this mystery.

RD's explanation regarding the POI's difficulty in parking the car is a good one too.
I have the same issue with my car. I nearly always have to make two attempts to get it straight between the lines.
I blame it on the bonnet/hood which drops way sharply and I can't see the end of it.
That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it. :-)


I need an excuse like having a bonnet too. :)
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

myserty64 wrote:
There does seem to be an issue with BO's tracking.
RD is right in that there should have been video evidence of the POI back-tracking.
Why then did BO follow a scent down South Texas Avenue?
Why, indeed. It could be that it's like all the misstatements about Bo "sitting" at Jennifer's 2226 parking spot--there is simply nothing factual to it.

However, I've seen all kinds of statements to the effect that Bo apparently had no "history" as a tracking dog; and that no-one has ever found another case where Bo took part. Of course, a linked source was never supplied to back-up those statements.

I even sensed an implied meaning that law enforcement purposefully used a "no-good tracking hound" to be sure nothing useful would be discovered.

I personally find it ridiculous to try so hard to discredit a hound. Why?



myserty64 wrote:
Whatever, Bo wound up at Mosaic. If Bo was off her game she could have wound up anywhere.

This leads too another question.
Why did the POI head straight back to Mosaic?
Was it because he worked there?
Was he going to check that any evidence wasn't overlooked and had been cleaned up?
Bold by me - If the POI headed straight back to the first step of the open air staircase leading to Jennifer's condo on the pond side, my guess would be one of the following:

1) He worked there or nearby; but had some form of employed work near Jennifer's building that particular day.
2) He lived in the same building.
3) He was a visiting overnight guest of a tenant in the same building.


myserty64 wrote:
Why was Jennifer's car left at HOTG?
I think it was because the POI wanted to give the impression that Jennifer was connected to "dirty" things like drugs and prostitution. He actually succeeded for awhile, too.



myserty64 wrote:
Was it because the POI was in familiar surroundings?
I think so. He definitely knew the reputation of the HOG, and maybe plenty more about it.



myserty64 wrote:
Because it was a good hiding place with an easy walk back to Mosaic?
That walk would have taken 15 to 20 minutes.
The return walking time is a good point.

As far as hiding places go, I have heard locals say that if he had driven the vehicle a little past the HOG, he would have been in neighborhoods where he could have parked Jennifer's vehicle behind buildings and it would have went unnoticed for a long, long time.

So, a good hiding place? No, I think he could have found much better. But a hiding place to "plant" Jennifer's vehicle to fulfill his purpose--yes.



myserty64 wrote:
How many pedestrians are there using Americana/Conroy at the time the POI walked down there?
I ask because it seems nobody noticed the POI?

I'm reminded of a murder mystery where someone asked 'who made the foot prints in the snow? Answer; why, it was the postman. Everyone saw him but nobody noticed him.

How many people saw the POI but never noticed him.
Yeah. I found these paragraphs to be powerful in their wording.

It brings to my mind the bike helmet. Why wouldn't people notice a guy on foot with his bike helmet on? You would think that would make him stand out to someone.
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Nancy



Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Posts: 282

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Markybug wrote:
The gap in fence is very important imo , local knowledge?
Yes, I have to agree with this. But, I don't think that excludes anyone we've talked about to date.

If someone had been watching Jenn from--let's say--"a bit" further afield, I venture a guess it wouldn't take that person long to gain "local" knowledge.

As his plan began to come into focus, he would probably begin to seek-out and utilize shortcuts.
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